Author Topic: Fisher & Paykel start up torque  (Read 6494 times)

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commanda

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Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« on: July 15, 2006, 04:27:20 AM »
Bought a new toy today; a spring balance.


So I hooked it to my Fisher & Paykel, and found it took approx 1.2 Kg at 0.12 metres to get past the cogging. This translates into 0.144 Kilogram metres torque.


So why is this important?

Alton-Moores calculator actually gives starting torque figures. In my case, a 4.2 metre (14 foot) diameter prop and geared 2:1 to the F&P, should start turning at just over 3 metres per second wind velocity (this was my design target). Yes it's a low wind site.


Similarly, a 10 foot diameter prop geared 2:1 would require 5.5 metres per second to start turning.


In practice, the torque from the blades at any given wind velocity will be slightly less than calculated, due to the reduction in root area.


I've actually found weather bureau hour by hour average wind velocities for the local airport. It's 20 Km away from our site, but since we're not living there yet, it's the best I can currently do. I'm dumping it into a spreadsheet and extracting approx F&P power out, and then summing that into daily totals. Last couple of days shows a low of 1.6 KWHrs and a high of almost 5 KWHrs. Weather Bureau page here http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDN65092/IDN65092.94588.shtml


Amanda

« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 04:27:20 AM by (unknown) »

willib

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2006, 08:35:44 AM »
i commend you for sticking to your F&P alt, no matter how bad it cogs :)

isnt there a point when the added complexity of using a F&P alt ,can be simplified by going another route , say an axial flux or a conversion with a skewed stator?

* duck and cover *
« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 08:35:44 AM by willib »
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WXYZCIENCE

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2006, 10:35:09 AM »
Commanda, there is some good info on f&P cogging.


http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/FORUM1/forum_posts.asp?TID=222&PN=1


Arranging the magnets to eliminate cogging. Joe
« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 10:35:09 AM by WXYZCIENCE »

BruceDownunder

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2006, 04:38:29 PM »
Hi, Saturday I looked at the blank rotor hub of my F&P and decided to "re-arrange" the ceramic magnets slightly .

I arranged them so that I placed a strip of 120sandpaper between each magnet. This gives me around 3 to 4 mm gap at the finish.

I dropped a dob of super glue on each one .

Today ,Sunday , I will mate it with the stator and see if I wasted my time,lol.


I'm interested in Commanda's idea and in fact have looked around for a tech spring balance,.

Commanda, if the cogging is reduced ,will the poles/flux be out of sync ??.


I will hook it up and test for o/p also

Bruce

« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 04:38:29 PM by BruceDownunder »

commanda

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2006, 04:55:49 PM »
Bruce,


I got the spring balance from Mitre 10 for about $15.00. It's 30 Kg full scale.


The poles/flux will be out of sync (slightly), as Gizmo pointed out. The sine wave will be slightly distorted. At least, more than it is already. I haven't dragged the cro out and looked at it, but I know it's not real good, because you get more power out by rectifying the 3 phases seperately.


Amanda

« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 04:55:49 PM by commanda »

domwild

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2006, 01:35:37 AM »
Commanda,


Good to hear from you again! You have started an interesting thread there with other contributors struggling with the same problem and starting to rearrange the magnets to reduce the cogging.


More power by rectifying each phase separately? Sounds interesting. Is this the same method which Jerry once proposed? He also added caps, didn't he? I am vague on that.

*

« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 01:35:37 AM by domwild »

commanda

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2006, 03:12:43 AM »
Dominic,


Have you got that 36 volt system flying yet?

If not, why not?


More power by rectifying each phase separately?

Yes. Jerry took it to the abslute extreme, but he had the right idea.


He also added caps, didn't he?


There was a link to a pdf file posted on here about 6 months ago. Basically it was about optimising F&P's for a fixed frequency (single speed) by adding parallel capacitors to cancel out the intrinsic inductive reactance. Great for Hydro applications. Doable in a wind driven environment with switched capacitors from a multi-stage wye-delta switch. In practice (for wind), more trouble than it's worth.


To let the cat out of the bag; I'm currently working on a "universal" Dc-Dc converter.


I figure I need three types of converter;


51 volts input to 24 volts output, regulating on the input voltage, for my solar panels.


A boost converter with input from the F&P to some fixed voltage.


And a buck converter from previous fixed high voltage to battery voltage with mppt control input.


And just to round it out, a boost converter with fixed pulse width a-la Flux (Matching the Load).


I'm currently overlaying all these slightly different circuits onto one pcb.


Oh yeah; it also uses synchronous rectification to boost efficiency.


Amanda

« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 03:12:43 AM by commanda »

oztules

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2006, 05:45:00 AM »
Well Amanda,

I can't help but say that I'm looking forward to this series of projects.


I am currently fiddling with a halfbridge design for a fairly universal dc/dc converter. It's has started life as only about 500w-700w. It is modelled along the lines of a typical psu but with proper current control, voltage control, short protection etc.


The prototype without active  cooling etc seems ok with outputs 12v to 50v.


input is from 200v-400v....  At 300vdc in, the problem I have so far is in the current output at low voltages. at output= 24-30v, 20A is ok, but not much better at 13-15v..... at 38-45v can still do 20A or so with out too much stress.


all testing so far has been with 300v dc in (roughly mains rectified)


when up in the 400w and up, it needs cooling (comp fan perhaps) on the recs. The synchronous rectifying you speak of will help this end of it in particular.


The switchers 2sc2555 don't seem to develop any where near as much heat as the d92 diodes... the output filter gets too warm also. I think I have saturation problems. (toroid)


I am using mainly parts from old psu's (quaz's request) It uses the noise filters, caps, input bridge, drive transformer, tl494 chip, fr155's, 945 trannies c2555 trannies etc. only a etd39 power transformer (self wind) with drive coils for the supply voltage is non-psu and the d92 diodes and higher voltage output caps. All else should be able to be salvaged from a typical at /atx power supply.


The split wind power supply winding may be useful to implement the sync rec problem It currently only supplies the power for the tl494 and totem transistors.


The answer to your next question is what is it for.?... I don't really know, just felt like a good idea to flesh out.  It may make an excellent grid battery charger if nothing else (constant voltage), but I don't know who would need such a thing. It may also be just a very stable lab supply... volts are dialable and stable down to .01 volt increments. It's a good test bed if nothing else.


Will await further developments, particularly in the sync rec part.


......... oztules

« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 05:45:00 AM by oztules »
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willib

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2006, 07:09:03 AM »
Syncronous rectification of three phase is a daunting task , but admirable.

i too was thinking of sync rectifing an alt, because as you say , diode losses can be excessive at high power.

the problem as i see it , can be broken down to sync rectifing each phase seperatly, which implies three seperate circuits.

i tried doing just that , sync rectifing a single phase , as a starting point .

i used the wave itself to drive the gates of four Fets , in an H pattern with cris crossing gate connections , maybe it was the breadboard connections that was giving me problems , i dont know.

anyway it came down to switching  , the gates , of two fets at a time , to produce a rectified sine wave

and since you would be switching them when current flow is at its minimum , zero crossing, there is little chance  of spikes across the fets, and since voltage leads current in an inductive circuit , knowing the inductance of your alt may prove benificial.

but combining the three outputs , without using diodes , only complicates the body diode problem, to a point that i finally gave up on the idea.

in the end i figure that a little loss at the beginning is better than a non workable circuit at the end :), for me anyway.

and have decided to concentrate my efforts to using pwm , in a little boost circuit that i'm going to try tonight , as i am about to wind a 91.9uH inductor , air core .

i set the parameters to output 24A into a 24V battery , nothing spectacular ,but if all goes well , who knows

this should be interesting , i just realized that i cant measure 24A yet , but i have a few analog ammeter gauges that just need the proper shunt.

hi ho , hi ho
« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 07:09:03 AM by willib »
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commanda

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2006, 07:24:22 AM »
Oz,


Check out what this guy has done, might give you some ideas. In particular the sync rect.


http://www.qrp4u.de/docs/en/smps_new/index.htm


If you use a centre-tapped primary, you can direct drive the fets and do away with the driver transformer.


Also, fit a resistor between the voltage reference pin and the input to the error amp, with another resistor from that input pin to the outside world. This input can then be connected to the output of my mppt controller.


I'm also running power to the pwm chip directly from my 24 volt batteries, via a 3 pin header. The middle pin is ground, with the outside pins being battery and pwm chip power pin. For testing, connect the 2 outer pins together. Eventually, wire the 3 pin header to another board with an op-amp and P-channel fet to shut down the pwm chip when required, eg; no wind or no sun, depending on application.


If you arrange it so the main voltage feedback can be connected to the input OR the output, you can use it to mppt solar panels. Just adjust it so it holds the input voltage at the solar panels peak power point, typically 17 volts for a 12 volt panel.


Since I'm not using mains input, I've connected input ground to output ground. This makes voltage feedback much easier, as well as direct driving the switching fets.


Amanda

« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 07:24:22 AM by commanda »

commanda

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2006, 07:36:51 AM »
Willi,


We're talking synchronous rectification at the output of a dc-dc converter, which is single phase.


Air-cored inductors are not a good idea. You want a ferrite core and a switching frequency of 20-50 KHz.


Amanda

« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 07:36:51 AM by commanda »

oztules

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2006, 07:53:52 AM »
Hi Willib,


24A on an air coil.... better man than me. Best of luck with that. Will be keen to see the results on this one.


Amanda will speak for herself,.... but I think she will be rectifying the three phase as per normal, boosting / pfc to 320v or so, and then bucking down and then rectifying with the synchronous fets. I'm interested in seeing how she wants to gate them.


Keep us informed with your progress Willib


.........oztules

« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 07:53:52 AM by oztules »
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oztules

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2006, 07:57:16 AM »
Sorry Amanda,

Must have been both replying at the same time I didn't see your reply to Willib till mine had posted.


sorry ...........oztules

« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 07:57:16 AM by oztules »
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oztules

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2006, 08:35:11 AM »
Thanks Amanda,


For your idle curiosity, this is what I am currently playing with.


http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/5171/smps3l.pcb


The circuit is a mass of paper notes, and is not transcribed to schemedit yet

It works well at this stage, will integrate your mppt input into it.


The 1.8k coming from pin 1 is ready to accept your input. Currently it goes to a pot to ground to set voltage output.(you will notice the three pads empty there. Pin 15 and 16 are used for the current control.


It is an offline design, and I wired the power transformer with very heavy wire. I shall test it to destruction soon, but 1kw looks in range. The driver transformer is straight out of a psu. I'm guessing your driverless design mentioned above was for push pull, not half bridge. The pushpull will be better for lower input voltages.


The primary is center tapped, so a change to pushpull is simple. I wound the first half of the primary first, and the second half last to get tight coupling. so far so good. I added the standard noise stuff because it was in the psu, and it allowed grid connect to use for lab supply.


oh well more changes to do...


...............oztules

« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 08:35:11 AM by oztules »
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SamoaPower

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2006, 02:05:22 PM »
Amanda,

I'm curious about something.


Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but what are your reasons for reccomending against air-core inductors in switchers? Is it because of the smaller size and lower I^2R losses for ferrite or something else like distributed capacity or radiated field in air-core? Is the lack of core losses and no saturation issues for air-core not attractive enough? Or is it that it's what everyone seems to do?


I also see that Oz seems to find 24 amps in an air-core rather daunting. Not sure why.


I'm not trying to be contrary here, just curious.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 02:05:22 PM by SamoaPower »

SamoaPower

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2006, 02:10:56 PM »
For primary synchronous rectifiers, try running the FETs in the third quadrant to reduce the body diode issue.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 02:10:56 PM by SamoaPower »

commanda

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2006, 03:36:50 PM »
SamoaPower,


There was a discussion on air-cored inductors here recently

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/3/17/185646/194

from message 26.


There was another one, but can't seem to find it at the moment.


Amanda

« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 03:36:50 PM by commanda »

commanda

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2006, 03:49:24 PM »
One word, Wow.


I've currently got my pcb to less than 3 inches by 3 inches. Mounted the transformer on the bottom of the pcb to maximise real estate use. Laid out pins for an E42 and an E55 core. I've done a prototype board without the sync rect which I powered up yesterday. Just got to wind the transformer now.


Amanda

« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 03:49:24 PM by commanda »

SamoaPower

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2006, 04:59:44 PM »
The above was for willib.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 04:59:44 PM by SamoaPower »

SamoaPower

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2006, 05:35:54 PM »
Thanks Amanda.

The only thing I saw in Flux' treatise was his comment:


"I think you will have a hard time without a core and your L/R ratios will not be good."


Of course, he's speaking about coil 'Q'. In the 100uH range, it's not too difficult to obtain a Q of 200-300 if you use large wire which is kinda hard with the ferrite.


Anyway, thanks for the response.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 05:35:54 PM by SamoaPower »

oztules

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2006, 06:12:18 PM »
Hi SamoaPower,


My comment on the air core for willib is based on my supposition that he will be still running his pic at around 1khz.(I don't know if his programmer is back on deck)


At this freq, his r will very high with an aircore, infact with a say etd39, he will be in the 150 turn range, with air he will be huge, and so 24A will be problematic.. physically or resistively. If he comes up to 50khz or so, then circumstances change.


I like to run around the 20-25khz range, where the layout is not as critical, transformer size is manageable, and wire losses are within tolerable margins.


If you look at the http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/5171/smps3l.pcb (you will need protel autotrax or some other protel product to view it.. free from protel), and turn on mid layer1, you will see the transformer charactistics for this board.


For ease of building (for novices)I like to keep everything on a single board, this makes wiring botchups less likely for anyone trying to build it, consequently a tranny of small footprint is desirable for realestate reasons.... but not too small as to make it fiddly to wind.


...........oztules

« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 06:12:18 PM by oztules »
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willib

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2006, 09:58:56 PM »
its not large at all , the resistance is supposed to be 106 milli ohms , not too bad , i dont think..

supposed, meaning i havnt tested it for resistance yet , sure i could have counted the number of turns... grrrr, but that would have been to easy ..


http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2965/air_core.JPG


sooo i have it wound ,and i am really curious to see what will happen,,

general question:

i am able to adjust the pwm ,sooo do ya think it will try to pump 24 A into 24 V right from the get go , yes i'm still using 1.25 Khz  , and no i havnt started working on changing the pwm , would anyone be interested in a programmed pic with varible pwm,when i get back to programming them , what should i watch out for with this little bugger

 i suppose its time to 'S' or get off the pot , hi ho hi ho

« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 09:58:56 PM by willib »
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commanda

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2006, 10:09:52 PM »
I squared R.


24 * 24 * .106  equals 57.6 watts.


Amanda

« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 10:09:52 PM by commanda »

oztules

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2006, 10:29:58 PM »
Well Willib,


I won't argue with your calculator , but my gut tells me that something just don't add up. ... more like 2A - 3Amps perhaps....but I have been plenty wrong on these things  before.

Let me say that I hope like hell it works as you want it to. It just seems  underdone to me....


All the best on this....


................oztules

« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 10:29:58 PM by oztules »
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willib

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2006, 10:46:18 PM »
it doesnt seem big enough? physically?

the resistance is 0.121 ohms so i suppose i have to take a few turns off
« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 10:46:18 PM by willib »
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willib

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2006, 11:16:53 PM »
V over I = R

.399/3.74 equals 0.107 ohms.

close enough for me

soooo what are you saying?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 11:16:53 PM by willib »
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commanda

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2006, 11:30:40 PM »
I'm saying you're going to be dissipating 57.6 watts in a very small space equals LOTSA heat.


Amanda

« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 11:30:40 PM by commanda »

willib

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2006, 12:02:13 AM »
oops

just blew out two fets damn ...

in the morning i'll find out what i did.

night night

« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 12:02:13 AM by willib »
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commanda

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2006, 01:42:52 AM »
Have you got any current limit on those fets?

What about soft start. Most dedicated pwm chips include soft start.


In a pic, you'd need to start the pwm at essentially zero and let it build up over probably tens of milliseconds.


Starting with absolutely no stored magnetic field in the inductor and going straight to full on with no pulse by pulse current limit will almost definitely blow your fets into next week.


And another good tip; when running up a pwm supply for the first time, put some serious resistance in the dc input leads to limit destruction current until you get it basically working.


Amanda

« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 01:42:52 AM by commanda »

willib

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2006, 04:07:04 PM »
ive limited the current coming from the donor battery to six amps , aparently that isnt a problem , i dont know what happened last night , but both fets still work , one is a little melted , but it still works.

i adjusted the pwm down  to the point where i was getting maximum output current .

the output current , going into two 12V batteries is .06A

the input current at that reading was .7A

not good results to say the least,

i just realized what happened last night , i was using a resistive load ( a light bulb), it didnt like that at all

« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 04:07:04 PM by willib »
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oztules

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2006, 04:37:13 PM »
Hi Willib


It looks like even I was too optimistic....give it a core and see if it gets any better. If it does, guess what?


.........oztules

« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 04:37:13 PM by oztules »
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willib

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2006, 06:51:45 PM »
I gave it a core , and for the same output current (.06A) the input current was (.6A) ten to one .a slight improvement

with a maximum output current of  .11a


I thought i would take a different approach (this time) and design it from the ground up , which i did.

I used a boost calculator to give me an inductance value for my boost converter using my 1.25khz pwm .

then i used another calculator to give me dimensions for the inductor

it should have worked ! , famous last words i suppose.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 06:51:45 PM by willib »
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domwild

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Re: Fisher & Paykel start up torque
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2006, 07:38:16 PM »
Amanda,


Yes, Amanda, I am guilty of having let the 36V mill slip. Have not had the time to rewire the stator to your specifications. Been in hospital. But have received a 28X Picaxe proto board + EEPROM in the meantime; my only claim to fame.


For your suggestion of "parallelling" of two of the 7 coils in a single phase of 14 coils:



  1. Do you suggest using stranded (twisted) wire (more flexible) or single wire, more rigid wire?
  2. Am I correct to say that three wire rings with six ends for possible star/delta switching is the way to go?
  3. Without caps but with three bridge rectifiers instead of two and therefore rectifying each phase am I going to gain anything?


Thanks,


dom

« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 07:38:16 PM by domwild »