Author Topic: Thermal Turbine  (Read 5529 times)

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Murlin

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Thermal Turbine
« on: July 15, 2006, 05:55:52 PM »
Years ago, a friend of mine and I were exploring an old, abandoned Cotton Gin.


It was just basically a 30 foot square box with a cone like taper at the top of it.


While climbing up the ladder to the top, we found a mother coon and her half grown offspring.  What a surprise!! Coons get down right mean when cornered!!


Anyways, the opening at the top room was a hole in the floor about 3 feet square.


It was a normal, sunny day, with a slight breeze outside.  But the cool air blowing through that trap door entrance would take your hat off.  Constantly blowing all day long, wind or none.


Wonder if one could apply that experience to RE.....





Murlin

« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 05:55:52 PM by (unknown) »

wdyasq

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Re: Thermal Turbine
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2006, 12:22:45 PM »
They are building a rather large vession of this in Australia, several Mega Watt IIRC.


Ron

« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 12:22:45 PM by wdyasq »
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Titantornado

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Re: Thermal Turbine
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2006, 12:31:48 PM »
Clever idea, though you have to keep in mind that your wattage will still be determined by the size of the prop and the air velocity.  A three foot prop in air moving at 10 or 15 MPH isn't going to make much power. (a 1000 FPM thermal is a pretty strong one, but it's still only a little over 11 MPH)  The device would have to get quite a bit on the large size to make some good headway.  (like a 10+ ft prop and 100+ ft draft column, perhaps 50 ft across at the base)  A clear walled structure with "thermal absorbers" within would work pretty neat.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 12:31:48 PM by Titantornado »

Murlin

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Re: Thermal Turbine
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2006, 04:18:26 PM »
Well there ya go, nutin' new under the sun.....


Murlin

« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 04:18:26 PM by Murlin »

drdongle

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Re: Thermal Turbine
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2006, 04:33:08 PM »
I remember an article many years ago hat a company was wanting to build one over a swamp so as to use the rising humid air. It was to be shaped like one of the hour glass power plant cooling towers.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 04:33:08 PM by drdongle »

Murlin

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Re: Thermal Turbine
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2006, 04:45:48 PM »
One of the reasons I thought the alternator would be on the ground would be because it could be 4 or 5 feet in dia......


You could dig a deep ditch and make a tunnel for the cool air input, and pipe it up under the structure.  This could produce a larger volume of airflow out the stack.


Murlin

« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 04:45:48 PM by Murlin »

willib

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Re: Thermal Turbine
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2006, 04:56:22 PM »
isnt it hot air that rises

oh Murlin teh  erroronious  ? :)

i'm  just kidding around , but seriously what would be the advantage of introducing cold air in the bottom of a tower that wants the air to rise ?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 04:56:22 PM by willib »
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Murlin

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Re: Thermal Turbine
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2006, 05:13:27 PM »
Ya hot air rises, but I thought somehow that moist cool air, when heated would expand, and mayhaps generate pressure that might create a false wind of sorts....


Kind of like a ram pump with air.....


Prol wouldn't work but it was just a crazy thought that just kind of ran a muck....


Murlin

« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 05:13:27 PM by Murlin »

willib

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Re: Thermal Turbine
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2006, 05:41:28 PM »
dont get me wrong , i like the idea , and so do others aparently

i think  frank  posted an article , a while back of one that was built

it was a huge tower with optimized turbines,  neat stuff:)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 05:41:28 PM by willib »
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powerbuoy

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Re: Thermal Turbine
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2006, 08:02:04 PM »
You'll experience the same draft if you enter the bottom of an industrial chimney. They have been experimenting with the concept for a while. Additional pressure is added by flattening out the bottom and using solar to heat that bottom up.


see the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower


Powerbuoy

« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 08:02:04 PM by powerbuoy »

willib

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Re: Thermal Turbine
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2006, 09:20:42 PM »
Your link led me to a patent # 4206396

do patents have to be workable?

for the life of me i cant figure how this thing is supposed to generate power

your link led me to wind turbines , which led me to


Charged aerosol generator with uni-electrode source


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaneless_ion_wind_generator


which led me to the patent applicaion below


http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/neta
html/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4206396.WKU.&OS=PN/4206396&RS=PN/4206396

« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 09:20:42 PM by willib »
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Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Thermal Turbine
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2006, 12:19:12 AM »
do patents have to be workable?


No.


(Except perpetual motion machines.  You have to bring them a working model.  They instituted that to stop the flood of bogus perpetual motion machines.)


Patent office checks for prior art.  Doesn't check for functionality.


(What's the point of patenting something that DOESN'T work?  If you want to spend a few grand patenting something bogus, that's your problem.  Meanwhile, if you have something you THINK will work, you want to get it patented PDQ to beat the competition.  You'll worry about whether it works later, right?)

« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 12:19:12 AM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Titantornado

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Re: Thermal Turbine
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2006, 06:07:46 AM »
And here's a big one already running in Spain.


« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 06:07:46 AM by Titantornado »

powerbuoy

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Re: Thermal Turbine
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2006, 09:56:03 AM »
Willib .... don't forget ....this thing is not small. You're talking about a tower that might be 300 feet high and 30 feet in diameter ... you'll naturally have a chimney type updraft in there.


So, this is nothing one can do in his backyard ... or so i believe. Maybe I am underestimating some peoples backyards ..hehe.


Powerbuoy

« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 09:56:03 AM by powerbuoy »

powerbuoy

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Re: Thermal Turbine
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2006, 12:35:04 PM »
yeah ...that's probably the very first one ever built ... I forgot what the output is,...but probably in the 50 to 300KW range. One idea is to have a water reservoir under the flat solar roof part. That way, it'll still keep going for a while after the sun has set. (The water will store some heat.)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 12:35:04 PM by powerbuoy »

willib

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Re: Thermal Turbine
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2006, 01:23:11 PM »
the patent i was talking about was not for the thermal turbine


the thermal turbine works , and was not why i asked the question about patents.


the patent i was talking about was , well ..lets not even get into it...

« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 01:23:11 PM by willib »
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stevesteve

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Re: Thermal Turbine - hot air doesn't rise!
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2006, 03:14:36 PM »
Strictly speaking the hot air doesn't rise. The cold air tries to get as low as possible and displaces it - that sounds contentious but it is the correct physics explanation.


Gravity pulls the atmosphere down. The cold, dense air would form a uniform layer. If a volume of air is warmed and reduces in density, then the column of cold air in the atmosphere will be pulled down more and move into it's space, thus displacing it upwards. It's the same deal where gravity pulls the dense water down and it tries to displace your less dense boat, pushing it up to the surface.


As the sun heats the air under these huge glasshouses, cold air moves in, displacing the warm air up the chimney.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 03:14:36 PM by stevesteve »

Countryboy

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Re: Thermal Turbine
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2006, 04:06:46 PM »
This reminds me of air conditioning the Persians invented 1000 years ago.  They could cool a house by 15 degrees Celcius in the middle of a hot desert!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qanat#Cooling


While most folks don't have 6-10 mile long qanats to access, they do have access to underground drainage tile.  We just installed about 70,000 feet of tile in 70 acres - that's 13 miles of underground air passageways that are at about 55 degrees F year round.  Mother Nature's air conditioning anyone?


To heck with trying to extract energy for electricity with updrafts - let's use this kind of idea for heating/cooling.  It'd be a lot easier to heat/cool with this method than trying to generate electricity to power a heater/air conditioner.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 04:06:46 PM by Countryboy »

Murlin

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Re: Thermal Turbine
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2006, 06:14:49 AM »
I already am using the geothermal in my area to heat and cool with :)


In the straw bale house we are building, we drilled 3' dia holes, 21 ft deep under the floor in each room, where coiled water will circulate and then zig zag under the floor.


75 degrees radiant temp  24/7/365 :)


Murlin

« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 06:14:49 AM by Murlin »

dukejaz

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Re: Thermal Turbine- my take
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2007, 12:59:55 PM »
POWER FROM A CONVECTION LOOP:


this is a scaled down version of the solar tower

updraft system planned for austrailia, or the SHPEGS

project with water/silica jell adsorption instead of

ammonia absorption, or the water spray downdraft

'culvert on a hillside', proposed for hot dry

climates.... or is it a solar hot, creek water heat

sink, stirling motor with gravity/adsorption/psi

assist?


MY SMALL SCALE PLAN:


I have a 10 acre property in bc, canada, with a very

cold, (7C seasonal avg), creek water intake ~ 80'

uphill, reaches my waterbox at ~40 psi, the overall

grade is about 35%.


a wind turbine, (kicks in at 5m/s, out put at 8m/s

10Kw), with 6m span is the basic buy;


a blown in place cement loop, consisting of two ~

500m3 chambers and two 30 meter long x 2 meter diam ducts,

(see monolithicdome.com), and a very large solar batch heater are the basic builds:


the top chamber is under ground, sloping downhill. in

the 2 meter duct preceding this chamber 20, or so,

cold creek water misters, pointing down hill, spray cool the dry, hot air. excess water is collected, and supplies the domestic hot water tank. as humid air

is lighter than dry air the next step is a silica gell

adsorbent wheel. the air is warmed by this, so a

copper pipe heat exchanger, filled with cold creek

water, recools the airstream to 10C before it falls

into the upper chamber.

a buried 2 meter air duct runs 50m down, (drop = 12m)

to the wind turbine, which sits in the mouth of

the hot air chamber, (at the lowest point therein).


HEATING CHAMBER:

a blown in place cement tube,(nickel or carbon black

outside surface, selective thermal topcoat), contains

another blown in place cement tube. this forms a one

meter 'jacket' filled with heat transfer fluid, the

smaller diam inside inclosure is the lower hot air

chamber. this section runs back uphill, smoothly

enters a 2m air duct that connects with the spray down

and desiccant wheel duct. this hot return section is spray

foam insulated and buried in a perlite trench.    


this large volume of htf enables:


domestic heat,(did i mention that the system will

provide all domestic heating and removal of heat?).


fluid to circulate in the interior heat pipes: to stay

out of the airflow, these are put, infloor heating

style, on the bottom of the inner cylinder, (this adds

to seasonal thermal storage as well).  


diurnal storage: i have sized the htf volume and

aperture for 7 hrs exposure = the btu's it takes to

heat my house for 24 hours when it is 20c below, PLUS

the amount of heat loss from 24 hr wind tunnel

operation. these kind of cupped cylinder, black body

collectors convert a healthy percentage of solar

energy into btu's. even if i only get 50% of the

energy falling in 7 hrs on 100 square meters, (10

meter by 10 meter collector area @ ~~1000 watts/sq

meter) into btu i have lots. even in this dead of

winter, worst case scenario, there is a cold air bonus

available. by use of a venturi valve the cold water at

50psi can draw in outside air: you can tune these as

to how much air but, due to nucleation issues, the

water would not freeze until minus 7C, or colder.(i

have tried to make snow this way...it does not work).

thus, when solar is at low ebb, some delta t can be

maintained.    


seasonal thermal storage: sizing this big will give

tons of heat in the summer. the black tube sits very

close to bed rock so, with little effort and a minor

cost, shallow, vertical heat pipes are bored directly

below the hot section, (ten meters deep x one every

few feet). very small retrieval cost as the tube sits

right in the hot plume.


the look of the entire solar collector is very close

to a scaled up solar batch heater. anodized aluminum

parabolic troughs cup the black cylinder and bring the

width of apertue out to 10m. a cable tensioned ETFE

membrane covers the 10x10 meter aperture. a second

desiccant wheel draws geo temp

air into the bottom of this envelope and hot dry air

is vented at the top of the ETFE skin. although this is a parasitic drain on the collector, this space must be temp and humidity controled, (the envelope must be vented in any case), this hot dry air can be put to use  regenerating the desiccant wheel.


 if it seems all this water removal is costing to many btu, consider this: the the htf CANNOT impart more than a fraction of its energy to the air in the heating chamber, no matter the surface area of heat exchange. by moving some work to desiccant regeneration, MORE of my btu can be brought to bear ON the objective.


this is NOT a million dollar build:


100 sq meters ETFE foil = $15,000

cable tensioned ETFE support structure = $10,000  



  1. Kw wind turbine   $20,000
  2. feet of 2 meter blown in place air duct, trench,


perlite = $50,000

many gallons of heat transfer fluid = $10,000

two, (well, three really), blown in place cement

chambers = $100,000.

10 6" by 10 meters deep boreholes; 60 meters @

$300/meter = $18,000


GRAND TOTAL $223,000


my stirling question is this: if this thing just laid

flat, ie - no drop at all, it looks like a sterling

setup with potential,

but no potentiator. the air would still want to move

from the high pressure to the low pressure chamber,

but would probably form loops in both air ducts; ie it

has no direction. but, aided by that 50' drop and

nudged again by the nozzles, flow is established and

no air goes the wrong way. therefore, one should get

at least the output predicted by stirling formulas

that take swept volumes and delta T as inputs. i have

seen this formula somewhere online, plug and play

style. my own Fermi estimate is that, at summer solar

max, with the hot air at ~ 160C and cold at 10C, there

may be too much wind for a 10Kw turbine.  


assume 500m3 air in each chamber.

cold dry air at 10C has a density of ~ 1.2 Kg/m3

hot dry air at 150C  has a density of ~ .8 Kg/m3


so, we have a 600 Kg air chamber displacing a 400Kg

air chamber. to do so, it falls 12 meters. it seems to

me that you have the potential energy of 200 Kg falling 12

meters, or 200 x 9.8 x 12 =  23520 ...... but are these mega joules or what?am i on the right track at all here? how to translate that in to Kw? it

seems to me that you would need at least a 10Kw motor

to lift 200Kg 12 meters in the time it takes for any object to fall 12 meters.


i am aware that the friction loss needs to be accounted for, this is one reason for the large diam connecting ducts, i may need help quantifying this later but, as a 10 kw only needs 5-7 m/s flow to run, and is useless beyond 10m/s, i will probably have to size down. this is only because i cannot find a suitable air motor that would take higher velocity air from a smaller duct...ie the wind turbine is off the shelf.    


ok, let the torrents of 'yeah but's loose. i am

posting here to put this idea up against rigorous

thinking, but help full suggestions very welcome too.


          regards             duke

« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 12:59:55 PM by dukejaz »