My hydro project

[nailed]

As far as confusing I think I need to lay out my whole setup to stop some of it.

I live to far out to use the grid or net metering.  Most of my places around my have multiple diesel generators.  And I hear it's almost a fight to get the used cooking oil out hear.  But I have been living off grid for about 15 years and my recent setup is about 10 years old.  Everything is outdated and I can't see how much power I'm making.  So it's up to me to keep a close watch on everything.  

I'm trying to set up hydro but I'm trying to set something up cheaply even though I will or might need to replace it and I might even have to get a pre built unit.  But still want to try before I buy.

It's an old water pump that was fitted on the back of a tractor run off a PTO shaft.  I do not know what the pump would put out at what RPM.  If it is needed I can try to hook one back up to the tracker and get some numbers.  You put the intake in to the water and could pump water out of a pond or river.  I used to use it for watering my corn crop.  But when the bearings burnt out I just got new ones.  Well not I don't need them any more because of damming up the springs and now have a huge pond that I water by using gravity.  

But what I have is a pond feed by a few springs.  I have 3 8" flexible PVC pipes running out of the pond.  2 are for watering some of my fields and the one I have through a 12' by 12' building that I want to use for hydro power.  At the point of the building I have about 25 foot of head and 300 GMP using a 6" pipe.  (I would have tested it using 8" but don't have the right stuff).  For getting the water out I have 2 8" PVC flexible lines running in to the river, it has about another 5 foot of head.  I do use 8" metal pipe in the building for the plumbing and did build a manifold on both inlet and outlet (if this dose not work).

I have decided that I'm going to with 48 volts.  I am planning on tacking down my windmills (24 volts) and replacing them if more power is needed.  I do have some solar that puts out 80 amps (24 volts 12 210 watt panels) in full sun about 6 hours a day.  I'm not planning on my hydro to power my whole system but a good part of it.  The current inverters and charge controllers I have don't give any information about the how much power I'm making and using.  I'm not planning on adding a lot of new loads to my system but I do want to update it.  I'm planning on using outback inverters and outback for my PV charge controllers.  I do have a controller for dumping loads that will work on 24 or 48 volts.  I have 50 100 amp hour AMG batt that are wired in 5 stings.  Each string is parallel and series and has disconnect, I am planning on rewiring to 48 volts, I'm planning on there replacement in the next few years.    

I'm hopping I can use the hydro to makeup for the wind mills.  The best I can tell they were producing about 65 to 80 amps between the 2 of them (depending on winds).  This is why I was thinking a 48volt alternator would work.  

I do not know much about the best way to generate power out of wind or hydro.  But at this time what would be some good choices to look at generating power of the current hydro setup.  I know that I'm not using the best setup but

[Flux]

3oo gpm ( I assume us gallons) at 25 ft head may get you about a kW depending how well your pump runs as a turbine, so think about 750W at best.

You want to do this to charge a 48v battery and I seem to remember seeing somewhere that you want to use a stock stator without rewinding.

This should be possible with a motor conversion using about a 3 hp motor. You will almost certainly have to do a lot of experimenting and much will depend on your magnets and the number of poles of the motor. Try to pick a 4 or 6 pole to have more magnet space.

You will have to refer to Zubbly's work on this. It is unlikely that you will get a direct match, you may have to play about with belt speeds, but you may be lucky to get a winding connection that will let you direct drive which will be better if you can manage it.

You may manage with a smaller motor but for continuous duty I don't think I would try much smaller. You will be running below original speed and cooling fans will be less effective.

If you can measure your pump speed I suggest you rig up a prony brake with spring balances and a bit of rope on a pulley and actually measure what you can get out of the pump, then you will have a much better idea of the alternator rating.

Pumps are not all equally effective as turbines, few have guide vanes and you need to operate at a specific head for best results from a scroll casing and rotor design. I would regard 25 ft as low head for a reversed pump.

Flux

[TAH]

300 GPM with a 25 ft head is only 1 kw max? That seems like a lot of water for not much power. I found a site that gives a calculation with a 55% conversion coming out to around 8kW if I calculated right.

[scottsAI]

Hello TAH,

URL of the web?

I did it by hand and come up with 1kw assuming a 58% eff Banki turbine and 88% eff gen.

The power would go up by 20% if the full 30 feet could be used. (down into river)

If a turbine was added in line with the water used for crops, double or triple power could be produced.

Help reduce erosion by slowing down the water coming out.

With a pond, a much larger pipe could be used. Supply load on demand.

Long banki turbine can supply variable power based on demand. With fixed RPM.

Water governor needed. Not simple, not complex.

Use induction motor/gen outputting 120 or 240 directly. Skip all the power conversion junk:-) Three phase is possible if usefull.

Much less costly. Very sweet setup.

Banki Turbine made of plastic cost only 10-20 dollars.

Can you do intermediate wood cutting? couple hours work to make your own Banki turbine. Follow the directions in the hydro section here, only using plastic. Might not last forever, but much longer than it takes to figure out if hydro is the way to go.

Have fun,

Scott.

[TAH]

I just googled for a formula and found a few web sites. The one I used was supposed to come out in kw. I had to figured out the  fps that the water was moving so there is a good chance I didn't do it all right.

[scottsAI]

Yes, I also found several. Which one to use?

http://nooutage.com/hydroele.htm

This one suggests 540 Watts assuming 50% system efficiency.

Also we are dealing with a 8" pipe, this calculator claims only 3" pipe needed.

Has a lot of head loss in the calculation. 20% higher if using a bigger pipe.

Used 300 gpm. 25 foot drop = pipe.

This calculator claims a 25' long 8" pipe will flow 5173.992 us gal per minute

http://www.energyalternatives.ca/content/Categories/MicroHydroInfo.asp

Produce 8.623kw of power. This must of been the calculator you used.

Using PM gen. Interesting calculator, think I will keep this one.

Earlier I had used a pipe calculator suggesting only 300 gpm through the 25' x 8" pipe. One heck of a difference! 300 gpm it self is huge, biggest pump I have is 5000 gph = 83 gpm, this pump is couple HP, so 300 seemed reasonable. Yet I wondered. Back of my mind said this is bigger than 1kw. Should have listened.

5100 gpm is way huge! A river! Has less flow! At 50% efficiency there is 8kw, he can get rid of the solar and wind! Supply power to the neighbors.

Any body have a spread sheet to do these calculations? I made one for wind, have found it very helpful. Don't have hydro so have not made one for it.... I like to see the numbers, make my own assumptions. Looked around can't find.

Link for a 240vac direct drive hydro: Bunch of other stuff from the root url.

http://www.homepower.com/files/hp65-36.pdf

Harbor Freight tools has 7.2kw (10kw peak) generator for $276. Speed up gears or belts are needed.

Have fun,

Scott.

[scottsAI]

Yes, I also found several. Which one to use?

http://nooutage.com/hydroele.htm

This one suggests 540 Watts assuming 50% system efficiency.

Also we are dealing with a 8" pipe, this calculator claims only 3" pipe needed.

Has a lot of head loss in the calculation. 20% higher if using a bigger pipe.

Used 300 gpm. 25 foot drop = pipe.

This calculator claims a 25' long 8" pipe will flow 5173.992 us gal per minute

http://www.energyalternatives.ca/content/Categories/MicroHydroInfo.asp

Produce 8.623kw of power. This must of been the calculator you used.

Using PM gen. Interesting calculator, think I will keep this one.

Earlier I had used a pipe calculator suggesting only 300 gpm through the 25' x 8" pipe. One heck of a difference! 300 gpm it self is huge, biggest pump I have is 5000 gph = 83 gpm, this pump is couple HP, so 300 seemed reasonable. Yet I wondered. Back of my mind said this is bigger than 1kw. Should have listened.

5100 gpm is way huge! A river! Has less flow! At 50% efficiency there is 8kw, he can get rid of the solar and wind! Supply power to the neighbors.

Any body have a spread sheet to do these calculations? I made one for wind, have found it very helpful. Don't have hydro so have not made one for it.... I like to see the numbers, make my own assumptions. Looked around can't find.

Link for a 240vac direct drive hydro: Bunch of other stuff from the root url.

http://www.homepower.com/files/hp65-36.pdf

Harbor Freight tools has 7.2kw (10kw peak) generator for $276. Speed up gears or belts are needed.

Have fun,

Scott.

[scottsAI]

Please remove the first one. Not sure how two got posted!

[Flux]

Yes 300 gpm is low for a 8" pipe but if he measured that flow then it doesn't produce 8kW whatever silly calculator you use.

At present he has a pump and wants to use it rather than make a turbine.

When he has sorted out what water flow there really is available then he may be able to do far better. I can only advise on the information available to me.

I agree about going for 120 or 240v direct but at 1kW it is not enough and he wants to charge his battery.

Flux

[thefinis]

Uh guys he says he was using a 6 inch pipe when he measured flow he just wishs he had the stuff for an 8 inch(to test it with?). I will bet the 8 inch flex has a lot of turblence even if he does use it. That tractor pump is probably a centrifugal pump. Would it work as an inline if the inlet and outlet were plumbed in to take advantage of the extra drop?

FInis

[nailed]

I have currently given up with the 48 volts for the time being.  I hade a disaster with some inverters and a wind mill; so I tossed 2 24 volt alternators on it and I'm about to install the new inverters I was going to do down the road.  

The new system is 48 volts but I'm using a 24 to 48 volt transformer has a 10% loss for now.  Once I get every thing working right for the time I will go back to the thoughts of making 48 volts.  

Thanks for your comments and help.  

I'll be back soon.