work on the shop

[kitestrings]

I debated where to put this... I mostly wanted to show the lighting piece, but there are some other things going on that might get discussed.

It doesn't seem that long ago, but about 18-20 years ago now, I had the chance to grab these tube fixtures from a defunct efficiency program.  They are mostly 4' units with gasketed snap on Lexan dust, splash resistant covers, and specular reflectors.  They were intended, then, to be used with T8 fluorescent tubes & electronic ballasts.  A typical 2-lamp version pulled about 62 watts IIRC.  Most however, had no ballasts, so they sat in storage.



Well, jump ahead to present day, and behold they have these LED lamps with ballast by-pass.  These are powered directly with the stock 2-pin tombstones.  They are 14 watts, 4,000K, 82 CRI (that could be better), and can be powered directly with 120-277VAC 50/60hz.



I put switch receptacle outlets in the ceiling, and when they had a holiday sale on extension cords I bought a bunch of 15' 'ers (12#), and suspected them on wires/clips.  So far only the two by the OH door have 2-lamps.  It seems to be plenty (way more than we had) of light.





Two are in the car-bays, and one went upstairs in the soon-to-be family/game/guest room
[ Specified attachment is not available ]

[Mary B]

I mounted an LED light at an angle on the wall about head height, light is directed down at where a cars engine bay would land. Really lights up that space when the hood is up blocking ceiling lights. Rarely need the magnetic battery light under the hood.

[kitestrings]

Yes, that makes sense.  I try hard not to have vehicles in this bay.  It is mainly a woodworking shop.  There are three banks of lights, separately switched, three, three and two on either side of the OH door.  The two near the door, I dropped a bit lower to be under the door & track, if it happens to be open.

It's a nice space.  It is 24' x 36', with no posts to have to navigate.  Some lighter coverings would help too though.

The shop's a disaster right now... I'm trying to get it insulated, and over the years have found I've accumulated a lot of treasures, all neatly tucked into the perimeter stud spaces, or hanging from screws, nails, hooks.  All of that had to be pulled into the space to allow me to insulate.  I'm looking forward to being able to find things again... one day.

[SparWeb]

The lights look nice.  Try a photo at night!

Just a point of trivia: a project at work about 10 years old is still selling slow and steady; the kit replaces fluorescent bulbs with LED bulbs in a variety of aircraft.  You'd think the aviation industry would have figured out LED's by now, but we're a conservative bunch.

Back to garages and shops.
I notice a lot of spray-foam insulation there.  I'm curious about the difference in the lower level (insulated walls and ceiling) and the upper level (insulated walls but no roof insulation).
Are you just not finished yet?  Are you planning something else in the rafters?

But surely the guest /game room needs to be heated, so why the insulated barrier (second floor) between it and the heated shop?

[Mary B]

My parents did that because they had zone heating... basement during the day was a lot cooler and didn't start warming up until 4pm so it would be comfortable by 6:30 or so when dad went down to watch TV, at 10pm it set back to the cooler temp. Why heat a space when it isn't in use...

[tanner0441]

Hi

Can't beat a well lit warm workshop. I had a culture shock on my third job after leaving school School was warm and comfortable. My first job was with ICI, warm and comfortable, second job radio and TV repairs, warm and comfortable, but the company went the way of many TV shops in the 50s.

Then I felt like a change so I went to work on commercial vehicals. 1963 the UK had a winter to remember, everything froze. When we aproached the powers that be for more heat in the workshop we were told..."If we are getting cold, we are not working hard enough." We were issued with blow lamps to thaw the frozen diesel lines though.

I wonder how they would get away with saying that now with all the employment laws.....

Brian

[SparWeb]

"If we are getting cold, we are not working hard enough."

I can just hear the scottish burr accent.


2-zones.  Good point, I didn't think of that.

[kitestrings]

Good questions, and observations.  The building has two car bays on the left, and the larger shop bay on the right.


None of it is complete yet, but the plan is...

The family room/kid-cave/guest suite is above the unheated car bays, where the dormers are.


It's a larger, nicer space overall.  So, on this section the floor is spray foamed.  Upstairs we spray-foamed the gable ends and the knee wall.  We had planned to then insulate the ceiling with fiberglass or rock wool.  We've since reconsidered and are going to also spray the (cathedral) ceilings, but I didn't want the foam directly against the steel roofing.  We've applied this thin foam/sheeting called "fan-fold" on the underside of the ribbing, and now it can be foamed.  This way the steel could eventually be replaced (thought that won't be in my lifetime).



There are many factors that played into this... the spray foam is great, but very expensive, and we just couldn't do it all.  Fiberglass is, or was, comparatively cheap, but prone to rodents nesting in it, especially with all the entry point that corrugated steel present.  My plan had been to do 3/4" v-groove across the rafters (4' O.C) and thus avoid strapping.  Rock wool is heavier and has gotten pricey.

The shop bay has higher a ceiling, so less space above.  The shop ceiling is insulated, but the upstairs area above it is cold storage.

There will be a lot of times when the shop will be heated, but the family room not, so I added the site built, insulated sliding doors.  This is the first winter I've really ever had a heated shop.  I've kept it at 45 degF all winter this year.

We didn't have a garage for years, but I swore when I built one it would be big enough to use, store, etc... and not have the cars parked in the yard because they don't fit.

[MattM]

Steel roofing is such a light load there is no reason to remove one when applying a new roof.  Add new underlayment over the old one.  Add diagonal battens.  Some people go horizontals and that is okay.  On a batten it only holds as well as the material you fasten into, so diagonal avoids relying on weak points such as from a bad rafter.  You can even drop in foam between batten and add another underlayment over batten and foam for a smooth surface.  Then secure your roofing to the batten.

[kitestrings]

The rafters are 4' OC, then there is 2x4 perpendicular ribbing 2' OC; there really is no substrate.  We were admittedly focused on building a garage/shop initially.  The finished spaces seemed a long ways away.  Time flies and here we are.  A new roof over is possible, but means a lot of extra trim work at the gables, eaves & cornices.  All of the roof trim on this building I did with the same back-enamel materials to avoid painting.  I'd rather pull it off,  and not have the insulation come with it. It may never be in my lifetime, but I rather not have my children swearing at me after I'm gone .

[kitestrings]

We have a spray foam contractor in town here.  This is who we used.  They are nice folks, good reputation, very professional... still it's expensive.

[MattM]

I liked the whole idea of spray foam at first, but now I smell it in homes that have it in the attics.  Just a faint odor, but it is there.  The foam never stops emitting/off gases over its lifetime.  And like all insulating foams, they lose value over time.  I've stuck to rock wool and the sound deafening is its bonus.  But the sealing properties of closed cell foam remain attractive if I ever seal up the attic. 

[DanG]

Many questions & answers posted before my own ‘shop’ thread gets here! Thanks!

The fanfold foam to block sheet steel from sprayfoam gluing & heaving might get used, just now was pricing 1-1/2” polyiso to accomplish $ame..  and that turned ugly fast.

(Coming soon to a browser near you will be my pole-shed finish-up thread)

[bigrockcandymountain]

Wow now that is the right way to do a shop kitestring.  That is ine of the most aesthetically pleasing shops i have ever seen.  I love the rolling chain hoist in the ceiling too. I'm regretting not doing something like that.

As for insulation, I vote dense pack cellulose.  It is the cheapest and best that i have found.  The sound deadening and air blocking are amazing.  It is also almost 100% recycled and very fire resistant.  It's dusty but not itchy.

I avoid spray foam because of cost and the off gassing.  It just doesn't come anywhere near competing in price per r value.  Maybe it is cheaper in the states than here (canada).

[kitestrings]

A photo at night:


Oh, you probably meant inside  ... how's this:



Family room:



Garage bays:


Yes, cellulose would have been good.  I wish I had planned for it.  A friend did his house & shop with it.  I think his walls are 12", with offset studs, etc.  It helps to have familiarity, I guess.  The spray foam is a real departure, as historically we've always chosen the labor intensive method that we could do ourselves, but I do like how it seals.  Mostly I've used fiberglass, but ceilings/floors are a pain.

[kitestrings]

We had quickly built this a little space above the stairs called "the fort".  The boys used it sort of like a tree house when they were younger.  Now they schlep sleeping bags out there - you can see the colored LEDs - and spent the night in milder temps.  We've decided to keep it as a loft for young visitors.