Prosine #2 Bit the dust

[RCpilot]

This is getting pretty annoying. Today the Prosine 2.0 was happily absorption charging the battery bank at around 30 amps, the beeper went off. (As most of you know if you have read my diary, I don't have enough solar power yet to effectively charge the battery and am forced to charge the battery every few days using shore power) I checked and it had an overheat error. But, it was still working. Checked it's internal temp from the remote panel and was 179deg F. Way too hot. Went out to the shed and the unit's fan wasn't running. I reset the unit and still no fan. Unhooked the battery, A/C, everything and let it sit for ten minutes. Hooked it all back up and still no fan. Internal temp of the unit was still warm enough the fan should have been running. Also noted that it quit charging anymore than about 5 amps even though the battery wasn't fully charged yet. So, here goes the phone call to Xantrex. This time, I almost had to argue with the tech that the unit was not functioning properly and told him everything I had done to attempt to make it work properly. Tried to tell me that the battery was too charged to take any more than 5 amps, the unit wasn't hot enough for the fan to kick on (At the time of the call the unit was at 165Deg) Finally, in a stern voice I just had to tell him to send me another unit. Anyway, yet another unit is being sent out. This one still inverts, still charges at 5 amps from shore power so I am going to hang on to it until the next unit arrives. Something told me the day I got it and opened it up and it had mashed wires that it wasn't going to last. I have pictures of my setup in other diary entries, if there is something wrong with my installation I sure would like to know such as room for airflow etc. Manual says 5" on DC end and 1" on two sides and 2" on the A/C end which from what I measure on my tape equals that. The shed it's mounted in is watertight and is only around 80deg inside as we have had decent weather lately. I even googled this unit looking for any negative posts anywhere and didn't find any. I just don't get it...

Kelly

[luv2weld]

RCpilot,

I went back through your postings and looked at the pictures of your setup.

You have a nice clean installation. The thing I was looking for was grounding.

Grounding or lack of can cause all sorts of screwy problems. Since you have

smoked 2 of these in a month, something is wrong here. And grounding would

be where I would look first.

Ralph

[RCpilot]

Thanks Ralph, you can't see it but the ground runs from inside the Prosine, through the blue flex conduit, back to the AC fuse panel (Grey Panel box on the left in the picture) and from the AC fuse panel down to a copper ground rod I drove into the ground where the conduit comes into the shed from the outside. It's about 3 foot long as I hit rock and couldn't get it to go any further. The only other place that the unit Isn't grounded is on the DC end of the unit (right end) where there is a hole to put another wire. Maybe I should. But, I checked the unit's ground that I am attached to and get a meter reading back to the other grounding point. I figured one would be good enough since they both end up at case ground. I do think I will attach both wires when the next unit comes in though. My battery case isn't grounded maybe I should ground it too? The panels outside are screwed to metal unistrut, the unistrut is bolted to the frame which makes contact with the main pole that everything is supported on and that ends up 2' into the ground. Is that good enough or should I run wires to each panel individually and drive another rod into the ground at the panel mount? What about a wire between the panel mount and the charge control? Maybe I just don't have enough grounding everywhere.

Kelly

[DanG]

I know this increases the complexity of possible solutions but both failures happened when using grid power so perhaps the powerco could lend out a line analyzer for a week to see if you are getting odd waveforms or bleed-over from a intermittent xfmr etc., or be susceptible to line spikes coming from switching noise from anywhere your side of the nearest powerco substation, or a randomn ground-fault rearing its ugly head... I think the Xantrex people may require utility conformance proof before they go a fourth round.

When speaking about grounding and such, your DC side could be a perfect tuned antenna for the neighbors HAM radio or a digital repeater injecting signal noise to cludge a logic loop, or ground faults on your side of the powerco transformer; heat pump compressor or what not - so perhaps a 48-60VDC circuit lightning arrestor and RF filter could be added to the DC circuit...

Speaking of which, have you eyeballed the overhead lines and poles to see where their transformer and nearest ground off your property is, and confirm there isn't a charred tree squirrel bridging the 10KV line to the transformer housing or the powerco's ground wire hasn't been torn off by some maniacal lawn mower?

Here in Minnesota our grid floats above 124VAC, even with a 1500w load it measures 123 at the device some 250 feet or more one-way circuit length from the pole mounted transformer - its hard on incandescent bulbs, even the halogen capsule bulbs, but more importantly switch noise is much more prevalent in the household lines and the whole neighborhood in general. It even cludges the digital satellite TV momentarily on a regular basis.

Things that could self-inject noise like corroded feed neutral - ground terminals, loose receptacle wiring, loose circuit-breaker lugs, poorly made area lighting ballasts, or things which could contribute to noise like cold-water pipe ground actually meeting PVC pipe on the dirt side of your foundation wall, or legacy ground-contact wiring gently trying to boil off water occasionally from damaged insulation might be part of the cause.

Take nothing for granted... and remember to put that battery vent muffin fan back in the prosine2.0 unit before you return it : ) ! ! !

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

My brother's house took a lot of electrical damage throughout when a storm cut the ground run to the pole for a Y-connected pole transformer, leaving the house ground to try to hold down both the house neutral and the primary's low-voltage side, with the 12Kv primary line trying to pull the transformer and the whole house up to primary voltage.  B-(

[RogerAS]

Hey,

I see something went wrong. Sorry to hear it. I still contend that the mashed wires could not have done the unit any good. I also still say if there were no seals broken I don't see how the company cannot void your warranty for opening the cse.

I also agree whole heartedly with others that a grounding issue could be the problem. My cheapo Cobra 2500 does some very strange things when the grounding wire is not attached. While this is not the quality of inverter your box is it is my sole AC provider, and therefore very important to me. Last weekend my wife and I redid the propane supply setup for our house. We dug out a place and poured a little slab and I ran some new copper tube. As I was working with the new tubing I contacted the earth and the house side tubing at the same time. ZAP! Somehow the propane frig, only supplied 12V, was leaking 16.3V AC!! Yes, AC!! I had knocked the ground wire off the inverter (weed eating too agressively aroud the ground rod by yours truely). I reconnected the ground and the ZAP was gone. My inverter also was running warmer than normal and the fan was seemingly dead. A test with and without the ground, while making toast, showed that the cooling fan did not run without the ground and did run when the ground was attached correctly. The only way the propane tube could be electrified was in the frig box/frame ground, low voltage ONLY! So my batteries have been getting a feedback of some wild AC of some sort. Maybe I've been giving the batteries a good pulsing for some time, at the expense of my inverter I'm sure.

My experience was not a threat, but some inverters might deliver a more serious voltage when such an issue arises. Be more careful than I was!

RS

[RogerAS]

Hey,

EDIT...

I don't see how the company CAN void your warranty for opening the cse.

...Be more careful than I was!

RS

[Mary B]

Sounds like Xcel Energy :-) I have the same problems.

[RCpilot]

Guys thanks for the comments, I will make up an electrical schematic in the next day or so of my setup using paint or word or something and post it for critique. Maybe then someone can shed some light on the problem. I have lived in the same place for 14 years, wired this home myself from the pole outside all the way to many outlets. We have a 200 amp service that is properly grounded, the pole and transformer outside was put in for us when I upgraded the original 60 amp service that the home had. Worked as an electrician for over 4 years wiring commercial buildings, residences, even did a 90 bed nursing home once. I have never had an electrical failure of any electronic device since I have been here and we get many many storms during the year with lots of lightning. So, I don't know what to think of this Xantrex Prosine unit.

[RCpilot]

Here is a rough drawing of my system. I stole a picture of another system and modified it with a painting program. The ground may not follow exactly but does touch everything as shown. I added the battery case ground and the second ground to the case of the inverter this evening. I have no breakers just fuses everywhere in small panels. If you look at a picture of my system in another diary entry you should be able to figure out everything. The only thing I didn't draw in is the relay that sits between the grid power and the inverter. It's used to disconnect the AC from the inverter so it will invert.

[luv2weld]

Kelly,

After reading some of the other posts about this, I remembered something

that happened a while back, when we lived in the city.

We were having all kinds of weird electrical problems. After calling the

power company, they sent a man out to check things for us. When he pulled

the electric meter, he found that the screws had come loose that held

the wires in the meter socket. After he tightened the screws so the wires

were secure, we had no more problems. I guess the point is to check

everywhere that wires are supposed to be secured to make sure the

connections are tight.

I also think I would try to get a better ground. That 3 feet isn't very

much. Since you did the wiring, you should know the answers to the following

questions.

Is the house or shed wired with aluminum wire??

Can you possibly use a buried water pipe for your ground??? Make sure it's

not PVC!!!!

Can you move the existing ground rod 6 to 12 inches to the side and redrive

it and possibly miss the rock that you struck before???

In answer to the question about grounding the solar panels, everything

should be grounded to one single point. So maybe you could drive a ground

rod at the solar panels and run a wire from everything else out to it.

Make sure you disconnect the existing ground rod if you do this.

If you do a google search of the web for grounding, you'll find enough

stuff to keep you busy all day reading. Some of it is really thought

provoking stuff!!!

Ralph

[ghurd]

Hi Kelly,

I have a nagging feeling the problem is in the AC output grounding situation.

Re read the bottom of page 3-6, and the section starting on 3-13.

They have done something different in there.

"To enable and disable the automatic AC output neutral-to-ground bonding system"

is where I would focus my attention.

Farmers slowly dump a bucket of salt water over the ground rod to get better grounds on fencers.  Not sure it a great idea, just saying it is being done.

G-

[RCpilot]

Thanks Glen. I read that section several times when installing the unit to make sure I fully understood what it's for. I left it set to the factory default since my neutral is bonded to ground on the Grid power side. It looks like you would only change it if, for some odd reason, the grid neutral isn't bonded to ground. I've never encountered that before, everything I have worked with has the neutral and ground going to the same place inside the panels. My inverter supplied panel in the house is bonded inside the case and not connected to my Mains panel in any way. The circuit that I am powering in the house goes to the living room. I removed the circuit from the mains panel and ran it to the inverter supplied panel. I ran three wires to the panel, the hot, neutral and ground with the ground and neutral tied to the same bus bar inside the panel. These same wires end back up inside the inverter with the ground connected to the case inside the inverter where grounds are marked out. I did go out and buy another 8' ground rod last night with the intention of trying to re-drive it somewhere that I can get more than 3' into the ground. I have studied many many solar schematics during this project and still don't understand one way or the other whether the DC and AC sides should end up at the same ground. Mine is. Comments on that? Like I said in a previous post, I wired my home (12X70 Mobile with a 12x20 add on room) I wired it in the sense that it had a 60 amp main and I changed it to a 200 since I was putting central A/C, electric dryer and electric hot water. My mains panel uses aluminum wire out to the meter base. The mains panel also is grounded to a rod driven underneath besides whatever the electric company has. This home is old with aluminum wiring to the lights and receptacles. The add on room is copper since I did wire it on a single circuit which is what I am powering. I remember when adding the 200 amp service, the electric company came out and changed the pole and transformer near the road and remember seeing the bottom of the pole had copper wire spiral wrapped around it at the bottom. That would be equal to a rod I'm guessing. That pole then runs to another near the neighbor and then from that pole to one right next to my home where the meter is. So, that's basically my setup. When I get a chance I will try to draw from the main pole to the home a schematic of how the power company is and see where all the grounds are.