hydrogen

[electrondady1]

i'd like to be able to use hydrogen as a fuel supplement in my truck.

i was thinking it would be nice to have  small tanks

like the size of a barbecue fuel tank i could switch in when available.

to avoid complex pumps and high pressures,

i was wondering if i could just build the electrolytic cell strong enough

to be able to work up to the same  pressure level as the tank.

i know that containing hydrogen is a challenge.

i wonder if there is a common substance i could coat the containment system with that would help?

[clflyguy]

Edad,

Go to OUpower.com, better yet join it. What you want to do IS being done BUT,

The process is a whole new big can of worms to do it right, and is nowhere near

as straight forward as one might imagine. It seems that your cars ECU fights back.

Just like here, there are some really smart & nice people there, and a couple jerks.

READ,READ,READ,READ- LOL, Gus

[tecker]

 The cells that are being used now make positive pressure with the electrolysis  that is enough for hydrogen addition to fuel carbon fuels  . Tank storage is not an  option . You  could also inject hydrogen into your Diesel get set a good place to get an idea of the volume needed . Also a good is torch  

station . A good start to get every thing worked out. I'm just getting the power supplies together now looking for the happy zone for my first Cell . the idea is to match the power supply and cell size to the output needed to eliminate gas storage . This works safely with shutoff's in place.  

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

Danger danger danger.

Hydrogen burns with an invisible (ultraviolet only) flame.  You discover it by walking into it.  And any leak is virtually certain to be lit after a while.  NASA searches for hydrogen leaks by having a guy hold a piece of cardboard and walk slowly forward until it catches fire.

Switching little pressurized hydrogen tanks on a homebrew tweak to an existing vehicle engine strikes me as a disaster working on happening.

[spinningmagnets]

I looked for existing electrolyzer information, instead of trying to re-invent the wheel. Its easy to find out on your own when experimenting, but time consuming.

I was interested in the possibility of generating H2 to use like natural gas, as a remote location substitute for propane. I haven't built one, but here's the info I collected:

H2 is from negative cathode, oxygen is from positive Anode,

twice the H2 volume is produced compared to volume of O2

http://oupower.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1398  

One Amp for 4 sq inches of plate, any more and there is an exponential increase in electroplating/erosion, 1 amp for 6-8 sq in is better for long plate life, but if quality stainless steel is available (instead of low-quality Chinese stainless), the higher amps will produce more HHO.

1.8-2.0 Volts per cell, any more and there is excessive heat and water vapor production... From my experiment, even 1.7V per cell, can hardly see bubbles flow out from cell. 1.8V and above the cell produces fair a mount of bubbles.

For electrolyte, use KOH 28% mix with distilled water 72%. Use variac and slowly increase the voltage from 0V to 14V while monitoring voltage & amp. Once the amp reaches 9A, check voltage per cell it will be less than 2V. You may check best gas output by playing with voltage. (this is for using a car alternator flowing through 14 stacked plates to make it compact, 7pos 7neg, in plastic tub, plastic plate separators)

http://www.oupower.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1541

Most automobile electrical systems actually run on 13.3 V. 7 cells in series will use 1.9 V per cell. As far as the gaps or plate spacing, 1/8" is recommended. I have found that with my test using different spacings, that the smaller the spacing the weaker the electrolyte has to be in order to control the cells amperage draw on the alternator. the larger the gap the stronger the electrolyte can be. The gas is formed on the plates surface, and I found that the larger gap between cells has little to no noticeable difference in output to the same cell with smaller spacing. But the larger spacing has advantages of easier refill.

In this type of cell, the O2 and H2 are allowed to mix making hydroxy gas (HHO). If you use a membrane taken from the inside of an old lead acid battery (between the plates), you can keep the cell plate gas outputs separate, and divert the two gasses to separate columns. The membrane allows electrical flow, but doesnt allow gas to mix.

It is cheap to buy carbon arc welding rods. These work very well to produce hydrogen and they do not melt away on you. I bought a pair of 12" x 3/8" rods for $1.50 at a welding supply store (this is one option instead of plates for a simple two column electrolyzer)

I thought I could also use the oxygen with propane in a MAPP gas torch. It will cut steel, obviously not anywhere near as fast as oxy-acetylene, but if the O2 is free and the propane is cheap...

I never made one, this could be BS...I doubt homeowners insurance will cover H2 explosions, and burns to face.

[jonas302]

I ran hydrogen though my oxy acetelene set up a few times always ended in a big bang lol very hot looking flame I think it flashed back due to low pressure oh well gave up on that pretty quick

[Fiddlehead44]

   I watched a TV program (Tis Old House, DIY) the other night and they had several

RE homes constructed by various Universities. The one that caught my eye, was a

solar powered home that through various systems supplied all of the homes electrical and heating as well as cooling needs. The surplus electricity was transferred (dump load) to a hydrogen convertor that captured and tanked the hydrogen for later use. Similuar to a battery. When needed the hydrogen was fed through plates with oxygen and converted back to electricity. This was kool. I didn't get to see the full program as the damn hockey game was coming on and Momma controls the remote. Did anyone see this and can explain the process better than I?

     Fiddlehead... BTW...the junior Canadians knocked the U.S. out of the world championships.

[spinningmagnets]

The MAPP gas torch has a different fuel/O2 mixing ratio than an oxy/Acetylene. I haven't tried it yet, but I've been assured it works (we'll see)

What you were reading about is a fuel cell. Putting electricity into water will separate the O2/H2. If you reverse the process, you put O2 on one side of an electrically charged membrane, and when you expose the other side to H2, the H2 nucleus (positively charged protons) is pulled through, but the negatively charged electrons are peeled off and they take the long path around the membrane (passing through an electric motor on the way).

No burning, the only byproduct is water and heat. Average citizens can buy a fuel cell about the size of a refrigerator. They are expensive and you also have to find a supply of H2. I doubt you can get city code permits for a home-built electrolyzer in your back yard, and I doubt homeowners insurance will cover any "incidents".

Fuel cell "electric" cars are going to be expensive. Some German busses are using dry compressed H2 in tanks on the roof. Several Japanese prototypes are running methanol (easy to make, lots of miles per tank) that is run through a "reformer" to separate the H2, but this adds more complexity and cost.

The batteries in electric cars are recycled, but expensive to replace every few years. It looks like the fuel cell is more expensive up front, but should last decades. Also, every fuel cell car is by definition a back-up generator.

I'm not afraid to work with natural gas or propane, so H2 doesn't concern me, but you must repect every flammable gas.

Ground yourself to prevent a static spark from your fingertips, and store any H2 you generate immediately through a check valve into a tank that is located away from the electrolyzer.

[richhagen]

I was messing around a bit with electrolysis the other day.  I see a few issues regarding the storage and handling of hydrogen.  It has a flamability range of about 4% to 75% concentration when mixed with air.  You need to ensure that you keep it fairly pure.  From observation, this does not appear to be a problem on the hydrogen gas collected above the negative electrode.  I would be a little bit more concerned about the oxygen from the positive electrode, however one could just vent that I suppose.  Also, you pick up a lot of water vapor, and a bit of your electrolyte with the hydrogen produced and mist picked up in the electrolytic tank.  I read about one project on-line, although I can't seem to find the link right now, where they ran the product gas through a water column bubbler, then a catalytic chamber to recombine any oxygen present, and then dehydrated the gas through a dessicant before storage.  I believe it may have been an old Homepower article.  You will need a way of filtering this and maybe dehydrating the output.  It strikes me that you may be able to design a tank geometry capable of generating substantial pressure, based on weight of the water above.  one other option would be to use a pressurized tank to perform the electolysis.





Here is a small tabletop experiment with a sodium hydroxide solution.  by fixing the collection tube, hydrogen could be easily pressurized to the equivalent water depth of the container.  It would seem that modest pressures could be obtained just by having a tall cell.  Still, at modest pressures, it would take a large storage tank to have a significant energy storage.  Have fun, Rich

[luckeydog]

Here is a website that has a lot of info on this subject

http://www.hydropowercar.com

Luckeydog

.

[GeeMac]

Okay Houston - Go with throttle up.

[spinningmagnets]

Looking back, I gave enough details that its possible someone might try this. I haven't tried any of this, and I'm just regurgitating stuff I've collected from many different places. I do not know what problems may occur or the specific dangers that exist when experimenting!

My plan was to compress the H2 into a propane tank at perhaps 100 PSI. Stove burners that are set-up with the proper air-mixing ratio for natural gas will work just fine with H2 (I'm told).

I think on-demand generation as an engine fuel supplement would work best with a constant RPM diesel generator with a governor. As gas supply varies, the amount of diesel fuel that is injected will be automatically throttled. An alternator from some 18-wheelers will have two pulley grooves. By adapting it into the stock location, the original engines alternator can be bracketed to accept a second belt (run by the first alt). This way the stock alternator and voltage regulator will function normally and the other alternator is free to supply the hydroxy cell.

The plastic tub (squarish?) should have 6 plastic dividers glued in to make seven thin cells with a couple small weep-holes near the bottom so the water levels stay the same.

Each cell should have two stainless steel plates (square inches depend on how many amps you wish to pump, bigger=more gas) If the plates are connected in series and fed 14 volts, then each plate-set will see about 2 volts. A plate-set will try to flow the voltage from the edges, so the edges should be covered with plastic, forcing the voltage to pass across the plate faces.

The plate sides that face each other should be rough-sanded (it helps, I don't know why). Since the plates should be kept as parallel as possible, and kept 1/8" apart, and edged in plastic, you might take finger-thick strips of plastic and cut two parallel slots on one side (1/8" apart) perhaps with a hacksaw blade, then 4 of these would make a "frame" for one plate-set.

The top of the tub will be the gas outlet, it should feed a "bubbler" similar to a radiator overflow catch-can. It is a container of convenient size with two openings on top. One outlet has a tube connecting the top of the tub to a tube stub that extends down to the bottom of the can (half-filled with water). The other outlet has a tube connected to the intake manifold.

This bubbler will act as a check valve and will also stabilize the moisture in the gas. When the engine is running, there will be a partial vacuum on top of the can water. Then, when the tub produces any gas, it will flow to the bottom of the water can, and "bubble up".

As the electrolyte water gasses away, you have to add distilled water (tap water has an inconsistent mineral content). One way is to have yet another container alongside the tub (the two water levels will stay equal). Make a float valve similar to what's in the back of a toilet tank. Connect the two bottoms with a tube and a check valve so the water can only flow one way.

An elevated distilled water store feeds the float valve, which keeps the "leveling container" at a water level above the plate tops in the tub.

I'm told any HHO gas production doesn't upset the normal air/fuel ratio of a gasoline engine, but I'm personally certain its not a problem with diesels