Just the fact please

[byndhlpng]

 I am a newbie and damn happy to be among skilled craftsman with such a wealth of knowledge.  I came to this discussion board hoping to get some answers from Builders.  Who better to ask than the hands on people?  The problem is,every time I ask a question I am rideculed for posting a subject that has already been discussed.  Many times my question is never really answered.  I hear a plethera of opinions and, mostly, all I get is people questioning other peoples answers.  I have been told to go research before I post.  DUH?  If I knew what I was looking for then I wouldnt need to ask the question in the first place.  If the subject was discussed last month or even last year I wouldnt know it.  Chasing information here is mostly a futile endeavor, usually leading me in a miriad of directions and never actually getting to the root of the original question.  It is very frustrating.  I tried announcing at the beginnng of a posting that I am not a builder and that I dont need the technical information.  This is to no avail.  I presume it is far more entertaining to belittle a person who appearently doent have the knowledge that abounds on this board.  Maybe weeding out the newbies will make this a better board.  It just doesnt seem to be the most friendliest of places to find dumb answers to simple questions.  Maybe after I build something I will be smart enough to ask something about what I should already know?

Maybe I do need to go someplace else after all...... you win!!!!!!!

Byndhlpng....... Aint it ironic that my screen name stands for BEYOND HELPING???

MANY GREAT MINDS HERE BUT JUST CANT GET UP TO YOUR LEVEL

 Have a nice day....

Thank you for your posting!

[Bruce S]

byndhlpng;

   Sometimes things go a stray, and people do like to be social and take things off on different tangents . But that's the nature of being human:-)

Sometimes getting to the answers people need basic information and lately there's been a lot of questions without that very basic info.

99.999% of the people answering these aren't paid by anyone other than self satisfaction of having helped another human.

If your skin isn't thick enough for this, then, well umm we'll miss you.

Is wasn't too far in the past that there wasn't even a newbies section on here. When I got my login rights, it was exected that you would've already read the FAQs and read the how-to-post in the correct area.

I google search this board all the time for stuff I have no clue about ( hydro mainly) and it works. Not the best in the world but free is free.

As to the DUH? well if you have a small idea of what you're looking for, then the search is still the best way to go to start out with.

This is what is trying to be gotten across a hundred times every day.NOT just the ones that get posted but even the ones we the casual user doesn't see at all.

One gent started in another diary, started out about building a 'mill and even though there was cross-talk about needing a little more info, once that info was given a few went even further to help with understanding the math.

He was even given what I would call a virtual pat on the back. (Ghurd--- I'm with you -10c is a bit too cold!!) Besides Finland is very pretty this time of year:-)

byndhlpng;

Please try to rememebr that the answers for doing gratis and if they get a little think skinned about it, give 'em a little slack its been a long year already.

Cheers

Bruce S

[DamonHD]

I'm new here myself, so I don't speak for this board or for its other users.

I don't think you've been treated that badly and I think that your tone is out of order.

But this is only my opinion.

I don't think that anyone here is under any obligation to give any answers to anyone for any reason at all.

You couldn't even enforce legal judgments against most of us easily given our wide range of locations, etc.

So if you want people here to help then you have to do on their terms and in particular be as clear as possible, maybe more than you think necessary, and understand your topics as clearly as you can before you start.  Note: no one is obliged to help you even if you are a Nobel-prize winner wanting to share a new free energy source with the world.

And why should there not be discussion leading this way and that?  If provides the enjoyment that brings people here to help and converse in the first place.

In the (rational, scientific) world that I try to live in, there are no 100% certainties (though plenty well over the 99.99...% mark such as the chemical composition of water), and that leaves many points open to discussion.  If you want to ask questions that others see as half-formed and then get upset by the free answers you get then I fear that that is your problem and only yours.  There is no entitlement to anything else.

If you start writing cheques for consultancy that might change, but you couldn't afford many of the contributers here, even if they'd take your money.

I think that it's positively rude for you to wander into a free buffet and demand 'just the caviar'.

My apologies for being so harsh, but I get very upset by the continuing tragedy of the commons from inappropriate expectations...  And I've been watching this going on all over the Net for most of my adult working life.

Rgds

Damon

[Hilltopgrange]

I think you are being rather unfair to those who have tried to answer your rather vague questions? I have just read your past posts and in my opinion you received plenty of useful replies with loads of links to follow.

"Many times my question is never really answered.  I hear a plethora of opinions and, mostly, all I get is people questioning other peoples answers." Is that not what a debate is all about?

"I have been told to go research before I post.  DUH?  If I knew what I was looking for then I wouldn't need to ask the question in the first place" that's the whole point!

That's the best advice anyone could give you, all you could ever need to know about wind power or RE is on this site but YOU need to find it and do the research yourself. Surly you don't expect someone to do your research for you in their time for a design idea with no details or specs and lay out a step by step plan

"Chasing information here is mostly a futile endeavor"

 nonsense just read the 1000s of success stories and failures that have helped all concerned to move forward with their projects

"I tried announcing at the beginning of a posting that I am not a builder and that I don't need the technical information"

If you are not a builder and you don't have the technical knowhow then why try to design a turbine from scratch, surely it would be easier to follow a proven set of plans available from our hosts or Hugh Piggotts site, in this way you will learn the basics and can advance to a more complicated or experimental build later when you have gain experience.

Attacking those that have tried to help you or point you in the right direction will not make you many friends. Do your research first and ask questions later just about sums it up.

Just my 2 bobs worth

hilltopgrange

[Old F]

I hate to see any one leave but  be for you  go  here is a site that mite be use full and maybe what your looking for

 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wastewatts/?yguid=37847778

Hope this helps

Old F  

[Tritium]

You know there was a time when a man was ashamed to ask others for help when he had not exausted all other avenues of information available to him. When I joined this board I read EVERY post on every subject that was of remote interest to me (make that the entire board)all the way back to the boards beginning. Took me about 2 to 3 months of study. Unless the conditions above are met then I would have been ashamed of myself as a self sufficient man.

Thurmond

[JW]

"If I knew what I was looking for then I wouldnt need to ask the question in the first place. ~byndhlpng"

"Many times my question is never really answered. ~"

"all I get is people questioning other peoples answers.~"

"Chasing information here is mostly a futile endeavor, usually leading me in a miriad of directions and never actually getting to the root of the original question.~"

^ uknow, last week my cat googled up a fir-ball, I was puzzeled to notice, that the search parameters, were quanti-fied on fieldlines. JW^

"I tried announcing at the beginnng of a posting that I am not a builder and that I dont need the technical information. This is to no avail.~"

"and damn happy to be among skilled craftsman with such a wealth of knowledge.~"

^ you see, this is what puzzles me the most, how would you actually know that for sure... I mean even rich has suggested cutting aluminum with a skill-saw using a carbide tipped blade. Im somewhat of an expert, but even I, would not try such a thing. JW^

"It just doesnt seem to be the most friendliest of places to find dumb answers to simple questions."

^ again, how do you know, these are simple questions that you are asking? JW^

"Maybe after I build something I will be smart enough to ask something about what I should already know?~"

YES, for one, you would find out what is really like to take 100% responsibilite, for a project. Then if you fail to meet the aim of design criteria, well you cant blame no one but yourself. Enuff with the, my project failed because I took what you said as fact, bull$#|+, its really up to you to truely understand what your doing. When you make it to the point, that you can learn from your own misconceptions, then you will have common knowledge.

'and if we head towards those asteroids and comets, then jacknife inbetween them, at break-neck-speed, we might get some sort of gravity boost, or something-

Zack Branagin'

JW

[JW]

I what to add something,

  it is only Admins, that wont mess with the diary section. I think this is really the only difference between 'users/members' and Admin's. For example 'in theory' one can bring up perpetual motors only in the diary section. Think about that for a second. Personally I intend to build a Bedini motor someday, I think it will be a neat project. But I would only post it to my diary.

JW

[kurt]

JW, overunity posts will be removed from the board no matter were they appear diary or not that is the rule.

[Tritium]

Hey Kurt "overunity" simply refers to a device for which the inventor / builder does not properly understand standard test and measurement procedures and thus arrives at a power in vs out claim that cannot be proved except by those equally ignorant of said test and measurement procedures.

Thurmond

[byndhlpng]

This is a prime example of my very point.  I asked a question. "WHO BETTER TO ASK THAN THE HANDS ON PEOPLE ?"  Now i get a "PLETHERA" of opinions of how I am inappropriate "expecting" answers for questions that i didn't even ask.  The total run on this "opinion" already is talking as if I am a builder ,designer, or thread thief and I should not expect free onformation.  This discussion board impresses me with the very gratitude of its members.  The "wealth of knowledge" far exceeds the needs of any first timer.  I believe that many hours of trial and error and friendly communication between builders is the very sole of this board.  I am not here to demean anyone  or discourage the function of this membership.  If it is the goal of this discussion board to make RE easy, then is it ok for me ask for every question not be treated as major surgery?  It was never my intentions to offend anyone on this board, rather I was hoping that an understanding could be met.  I am a firm believer in RE as I believe most in the membership are.  I am not, however, a builder designer or even a remote engineer.  I am a home owner and business owner.  My questions (Wind Speed Archives) (Breaker Box) (Turbie) were not recieved with the wrmest of welcomes.  My concern with RE is simply this, "Is RE worth my investment?"

Well, I needed more information and I came here.  I didnt want a sales pitch from some jerk working on commision, I wanted honest answers from people who live it everyday. People who know what is working and what is not.  Then maybe i can make a "Qualified Decision" about my investments.

If I stepped on some peoples toes, then I appologize.  I only have simple questions and I only anticipated reasonable answers.

I will now go and re-post my original questions.  Look for "Run That By Me One More Time" in the wind section. (twin prop excluded)  I will try to ask more informed questions this time. (ummmm will a repeated question get deleted??)

Thank you and this forum.

Byndhlpng

[DamonHD]

You seem to be very rude and narrow minded.

You cannot walk into a free buffet and demand 'just the jam, nothing else'.

Learning how to play nicely would be a very worthwhile investment.

Rgds

Damon

[BruceDownunder]

  My Dear Mum once said --

  Bruce boy,,remember ,, a teaspoon of Honey will attract a lot more fly's than a teaspoon of Vinegar,,

Come back ,old son ,,we need you as much as all the other nice contributors--just take it one step at a time ..

Bruce

[huntedheads]

Give it some time!

I,m new too and just finished a solar collector and have questions! Lots.

And have been given advice too! ( but everyone has an opinion )

 And when I search the "BOARD" for what im an interested in I get this:

Finnet tube heat: 0 found

solar radiant baseboard heat: 0 found

radiant baseboard heat: 0 found

baseboard heat: (comes back wind only)

Guess nobody has used solar for baseboard heating?

Stick it out and make mistakes thats how we humans learn!

This is the BEST place I know of.

[electrondady1]

just looked at this guys files .

 he's asked four questions on different subjects

and received imput on all of them

and on every post he talks about beer.

[finnsawyer]

Yeah, and it appears Bedini was one of them, which doesn't make sense.  For an example of a tortuous walk through measurement issues in a particular case check this link:

    http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/7/10/13416/0405

[wdyasq]

Byndhlpng,

I have good relations with friends who are highly skilled and overly-educated. When I have  problem, say figuring the strength of an odd sized wooden beam,they will laugh... or tell me where to look in a reference manual.

Right now you may be so ignorant you do not know what to ask. It may be you are stupid and will never try to gather the knowledge. I don't know.

There is a certain amount of knowledge necessary before one can attempt to milk a cow. One needs to know which end of the bovine to grab the hanging down parts and know the difference between a bull and a cow. Without that knowledge, you can't expect to sell a bunch of dairy farmers your advanced milking machine. This is fairly analogous to your second post, "Twin prop windmill".

Your third post dealt with a VAWT, the 'Turby' which claims 2.5kW from a turbine with the swept area of an 8.5 foot diameter HAWT. As Sandia labs never could get that power level from a VAWT and it is about twice 'Betz' limits. Let's just say one might be better off in believing in the tooth fairy. In a few minutes of calculation one can deduce these things.

Why should the good readers of this board waste part of their day explaining to you what a cow is? Or, why should they bother explaining milk comes from an animal, before it is put in the nice little carton?

Ron

[tecker]

Don't wear your heart on your sleeve . You'll bleed to death.  No one really cares about your feelings that's what your saying I think?  That's probably true . You want things done right and you want the most bang for the expense of time and money . .Ask away,screww some stuff up  lay it all out you'll get things done and done right. When you ask Questions you'll find a lot of folks that are in the same boat your in and a bunch more afraid to ask the Question you asked. Hang in there . All my gear is constntly morphing it's not that bad.

[KEG]

Byndhlpng:

Ok just the facts, I have gone back and read some of your posts, and if I under stand correctly you are looking for long term capital gain of a commercial RE progect and whanting some ansers from people making mostly home made stuff, obviosly

you don't need us, you need a collage education and a banker in your back pocket, and a little common sence wouldn't hurt eather.

kevin

[finnsawyer]

And let's not forget the issue of training the mind and the hand to squeeze and pull on the teat just right.  It ain't that easy.  Been there, done that - once!

[Volvo farmer]

My concern with RE is simply this, "Is RE worth my investment?"

No, in your case absolutely not. That was easy! Next question?

[GeeMac]

I see this as a place where two groups sometimes clash.

There are the people who live in areas where there is no power to which to connect. For them this is, understandably, serious business. They need to know the formulae and methods employed to create the result they need to stay alive.

And there are people such as myself.  I am here because I'm retired and like to tinker in my shop. I enjoy acquiring knowledge and putting it to use. This type of tinkering appeals to me. I live in the burbs and have all the amenities. I'm very slowly acquiring what is needed to convert to partial solar power and may contibute to the grid some day. Even though there isn't much wind here, I make windmills just to do it.  The cost is not too much of a problem. I only buy pieces when I can afford the expense.

When a person in the second group (mine) asks a question the folks in group 1 apply an urgent answer that is sometimes much more than the amateur in group two expects. this is followed by slightly escalting conflict.

A key might be to simply accept each other at the level we have. Those with answers should try to deliver the information at the level required by the questioner. If you have ever spoken with a good professor you probably noticed that what I have jusst described is how the professor operates. He or she judges the questioner and lowers himself to that level and then provides the information to lift the questioner to the next level.

Alternative energy is about to grow quickly and the ratio of seasoned veteran to newbie will be changing radically. More and more the vets will be exasperated with the same newbie questions. Patients is a virtue . . apparently.  

Let's try to tollerate each other's level of knowledge and encourage each other to grow.

[WindHarvester]

byndhlpng,

You did come across pretty rude in this post, you should eventually fit right in with a few others here!

Maybe you should have titled this post too "please attack me for speaking my opinion" or something of that nature.

Always equate the "cabin feaver" factor during these months, but then again some people here are rude all year round.

Lonnie

[electrondady1]

lol

[elvin1949]

 Do not use [search the board]

Use [google search the board].Solar baseboard heat gets 5 pages of hits.

later

Elvin

[fungus]

'Do not use [search the board]'

Yeah, thats just the simple search that came with it ... maybe it should be taken out and a google query box placed directly into the cell?

[elvin1949]

 And then there is someone like me.

I don't say much.Been here a long time

just ain't much with words. SO keep them to myself.

 later

Elvin

[feral air]

"Is RE worth my investment?"

If you're thinking of investing in RE then approach it like an investor would; investigate, do some research.

The book I've got my nose in atm is "How To Make Home Electricity From Wind, Water and Sunshine". The very first chapter deals with the economics and walks you through the sizing of an 'independent electrical plant'. That book is a little dated but it still might help if you can find a copy.

Wish I could be more help. take it easy

[wooferhound]

The Board Search function that is built into Scoop, appears to put Quotes on Everything that you type into it.

[CmeBREW]

Just keep studying on the subject(s)- and you will eventually find the answer(s).

It took me about 3 years of gathering 'bits and pieces' of info here and there to finally understand basic 3-phase. And as the poster says, it is VERY frustrating.

I really don't think the poster means to be rude. These 'Renewable energy' subjects are very diverse with practically countless factors involved sometimes. Many questions are not so easy to answer. And the discussion group is more for the SPECIFIC type questions than for a 'teaching course' I think. But I, and many others here, can certainly understand the frustration of being unable to find the answers to many questions.

Don't forget about books at the library. The inter-loan library book system can get you ANY book you want from your own library I believe.  It might actually be faster to study specific books than searching thru the archieves here, and then one could ask very specific questions to the group if and when they arise.

I admit, I have to study more books myself.

Don't give up. Learning on your own without a teacher takes WAY more time-- but it is worth it and starts getting easier when you see some good results begin.

[JW]

Ah, yes, the facts,

 I say to you colenel,

YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH.....

I second that electron,

LOL

)))

JW