Author Topic: My experiments with microwave oven transformers  (Read 3902 times)

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pvale

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My experiments with microwave oven transformers
« on: March 18, 2008, 01:51:50 AM »
Per data I found on


http://www.dawntreader.net/hvgroup


I have been experimenting with MOT's as saturable reactors, I beleive they may have a place with wind power, especially with those that run wild-AC type generators. Wherein MOT's generally have ratios of ~20:1, and that the understanding that saturable reactors are basically current driven devices, the series winding may be used to control a voltage level ahead of rectifiers. By doing this, you may control the resultant DC voltage. The control windings need to have a DC voltage impressed on them to control the let-through of AC to the rectifiers. This DC might possibly be derived from the DC at the output of the rectifiers. Some circuitry resembling a generator's voltage control may be needed to adjust the amount of DC fed to the control winding to affect the voltage level at the rectifiers that is fed to the battery. The above is known as a closed loop control. Possibly wind speed can be sensed, and and a curve developed that tracks the wind generator's speed/voltage capability.

I am an electrical engineer, and design transformers for a living. I suspect I don't have sufficient free time to investigate this to it's whole potential. So this is why I'm putting this out there, to light some light bulbs above some people's heads. I may be able to guide anyone who wishes to investigate this process further. Be sure to note the safety precautions on the referenced website, as MOT's can develop lethal voltage levels.

« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 01:51:50 AM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: My experiments with microwave oven transformer
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2008, 02:45:27 AM »
Discussion on saturable reactors came up a few days ago. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of using such things for wind power but they are not all they seem to be at first glance. It's old technology,the theory is simple but real devices that work are not so simple.Low frequencies and the fact that you are adding lots of copper loss and the problems with waveform and power factor probably rule them out of the reals of reality.


At best it was a specialist field and just trying to use cheap transformers made of low grade core material with standard windings is not going far.


Flux

« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 02:45:27 AM by Flux »

Opera House

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Re: My experiments with microwave oven transformer
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2008, 08:01:41 AM »
I like to believe that I think out of the box, but I can see no possible use for these.   I also believe that if an application can be developed it will be done here where no effort is spared to avoid actually using electronics that will work.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 08:01:41 AM by Opera House »

bob g

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avoiding electronics?
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2008, 07:58:10 PM »
operahouse:


not sure of your meaning, so let me ask :)


are you saying the concensus here is to avoid electronics (even if proven good)

at all cost?


hmmm,, i thought i was imagining that myself :)


bob g

« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 07:58:10 PM by bob g »
research and development of a S195 changfa based trigenerator, modified
large frame automotive alternators for high output/high efficiency project X alternator for 24, 48 and higher voltages, and related cogen components.
www.microcogen.info and a SOMRAD member

pvale

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Re: My experiments with microwave oven transformer
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2008, 08:34:44 PM »
Flux,

When you start getting power out of one of these wind machines, what does the AC frequency vary from and to? Has anyone investigated using SCRs instead of silicon rectifiers? You could vary the commutation with a half or full bridge of SCRs. I've read this forum for some time and not seen anyone discuss frequency or controlled rectification.

« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 08:34:44 PM by pvale »

Flux

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Re: My experiments with microwave oven transformer
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2008, 01:53:05 AM »
Frequency depends on the number of poles on the alternator and rotational speed. Typically a lot of people use 12 pole so that with a 12 ft machine the cut in frequency would be about 12Hz. Frequency rises directly with rotational speed and in the ideal world that would track wind speed. Machines as built here run fairly well stalled so a frequency range of under 3:1 would be typical.


You could increase pole numbers to make the frequency more manageable.


Thyristor control of a full or mixed bridge is perfectly possible and certainly would be a good way to go with heating systems.


You will need a different approach to build firing circuits that work from a variable frequency. There are additional problems taking phase references from a high impedance alternator where the waveform is chopped almost beyond recognition. This can be a problem with controlled rectifiers even working from large industrial alternators and you may have to deal with lots of overlap in the bridge conduction.


At the lower power levels it is far simpler to use diode rectifiers and do the conversion with mosfets or IGBTs on the dc side. That is the approach I have used. The diode bridge does still have some issues affecting power factor but nothing compared with the phase controlled rectifier. For loading into heaters I think a 3 phase mixed bridge would be very effective, but for battery charging I think the buck converter has much more going for it.


You will not see much discussion of these things here but if you haven't found it I did a diary entry ( long ago) called matching the load and I did briefly cover nearly all matching schemes I could think of ( except saturable reactors). It was not an in depth discussion, I hoped it would provoke thoughts but most are terrified of a diode bridge to the extent that I am still expecting someone to add a commutator.


Flux

« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 01:53:05 AM by Flux »

Flux

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Re: avoiding electronics?
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2008, 03:05:57 AM »
I didn't intend to comment on this but as I have virtually done so in a post above I might as well do so.


I am sure we have people here with all sorts of abilities, many are not in the least technical people but they are managing to produce something that works. It doesn't surprise me that they avoid electronics at all cost.


Wind power for electrical production has been with us for over a century and until recently nothing has really changed. I started to use electronics for field control on wound field alternators about 30 years ago. I even tried boost converters to get a bit more in low winds by reducing the field requirements about 20 years ago.


The introduction of neo magnets made wound field machines less attractive and when I switched to permanent magnet alternators I soon realised that the potential to increase output ( from zero to not much) in low wind was a real step forward. It does come with a lot of major problems in higher wind speed. As I have never had to depend on wind power ( it's only a hobby) I have tended to look at things from a different angle. If you design a pm alternator to make use of very light winds ( 8mph and below), you pay a very heavy price in higher winds unless you do something clever. To me gaining an amp at 7mph at the cost of halving the output at 20 mph made little sense, but in discussions with others I came to realise that those who live off grid gear their lives to surviving on every bit of power available on the average low wind day and 10Ah then may be more use than a huge output on another day when the batteries are dumping.


Commercial manufacturers have to look at things from the prospects of sales and they go for high rated output and low cost and don't really care if they get nothing below 10mph. That is why many build their own with better results.


I think that the simple schemes devised by Hugh Piggott and developed further by DanB and others have opened a new world for those off grid, especially the bigger machines that give good power in low winds and more than is needed on other days.


It is only those who can use the potentially greater output of these big machines for other purposes that would see any gain from added complexity.


Even those playing with heating alone won't find anything worth collecting below 12 mph so they can ( or should) optimise their windings for high winds and a simple scheme may be good enough.


Coming at it from a hobby point of view I want to get as much as possible in low winds but I can't see any reason to accept results in high winds that are seriously worse than I got in the old days especially when it comes with a big increase in stator loss, heat issues and risk of burn out.


There are also those who are motivated by the electronic issues as a challenge, but many will have no real wind power experience. They will do fine playing with electronic things at low power on the bench but they may face a big challenge making their things work on real machines with the force of nature thrown at it.


For those prepared to accept a challenge there is much to be gained from electronics but few are trained electronic designers and what is needed for wind power is quite a challenge. Basic principles are simple, all the advice in the world on the internet, but no real information that makes the difference between success and failure.


It is grid tie that is forcing the issue towards electronics where the larger outputs in high winds are not wasted as will be the case in most battery systems. That is what will bring the commercial manufacturers to use electronics and there may be a spin off towards the battery charging machines as they will use common technology.


If wind is your only power source and you are not an electronics designer then you probably should look at it from the reliability aspect first and performance second.


There is no reason for electronics not to be reliable when properly designed but it is not for everyone. I have never given any of my circuits except in very basic form as I know that even quite advanced electronic people may never get them to work. They are all analogue and the modern world does it digital.


Digital is fine for those who understand it and can also interface it with power electronics, something that few people seem able to do.


This is why I am not willing to reject ancient technology such as saturable reactors without at least thinking it through although in this case i think it is a dead duck.


Flux

« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 03:05:57 AM by Flux »

bob g

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Re: My experiments with microwave oven transformer
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2008, 06:20:10 PM »
Flux:


thanks for your input on the topic, it is appreciated


i have been interested in controlled rectification for many years, mainly for load

matching and improving overall efficiency in general.


you are correct in your assessment that most folks shun power electronics like it was a communicable disease,, i know i was in that camp for a very long time.


i like your thinking of using a mosfet or igbt on the dc side of a standard rectifier bridge,, we introduce some extra losses much of which could be eliminated by a controlled rectifier.


my interest in the subject is related to around 400hz, and i can see at around 20hz and variable it gets much more complicated (at least for me)


there is a ton of info available now on controlled rectifiers for use with automotive alternators, which aren't well suited to wind of course, but the technology might cross over to windgens at some level.


the diy community will probably be well behind the curve on this one though.


what i would like to see is a controller that would sense rotor rpm and keep the blades running at their optimum speed in a widerband than is possible with what we have now.

sort of an electronic version of the old mechanical pitch system


sensing blade rpm, sampling load and then adjusting the pwm of the controlled rectifier so that one could get the most from available winds over a wide range of

windspeeds seems to me like a worthy project.


bob g

« Last Edit: March 20, 2008, 06:20:10 PM by bob g »
research and development of a S195 changfa based trigenerator, modified
large frame automotive alternators for high output/high efficiency project X alternator for 24, 48 and higher voltages, and related cogen components.
www.microcogen.info and a SOMRAD member

Flux

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Re: My experiments with microwave oven transformer
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2008, 02:32:23 AM »
Bob


Yes what you have in mind is basically mppt for wind. It makes a wonderful difference and lets you extract the highest efficiency up the speed range, It even gains you power in the low wind region where conventional machines do well ( they stall to some extent on the low slope of the prop curve). In the high wind region you can run prop and alternator at good efficiency and there is at least double the power in the 20mph range.


You can extend the power curve up to 30 mph or even more as you remove the problems associated with stator heating. If you have a powerful enough alternator you can bring it down into stall in high winds and in theory you can dispense with furling ( you would need back up means of stopping it if something failed).


It will come soon commercially on nearly all machines ( some are there now with grid tie) others may be about there for battery charging.


I have used the boost approach that they are proposing with car alternators for many years. If you match the curve in low winds and wind the machine suitably it will match the steep part of the prop curve well enough for the high winds. The snag with this approach is that it requires heavy cables to overcome the line resistance problems and it is not really suited to less than 24v although it is still worth trying at 12v.


Using the approach where you design the machine for cut in and let the alternator volts rise with wind speed you make the line drop issue much less significant.


The low end boost scheme does have some advantages, it only needs a small converter, lets you keep running with reasonable performance in all but the lightest wind if the converter fails and is probably a safer starting point for the less skilled.


I have never thought it worth going the full mppt route, I just make the alternator characteristic track somewhere near the right curve, it does need setting for a particular machine, unlike true mppt that should in theory work with any machine.


I used load current sensing for the boost schemes ( except for the first that used speed). The buck schemes have ended up using speed sensing feeding a speed squaring circuit. In theory it should track speed cubed but with inevitable losses and my prop characteristics the track works out near enough to speed squared.


Flux

« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 02:32:23 AM by Flux »

pvale

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Re: avoiding electronics?
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2008, 10:03:14 AM »
Flux,


I appaently am just the opposite of people on this board, I have no experience with wind power, but a lot of experience with electronics and power electronics. I ma learning a lot here and other places about wind though. I have bought a plot of land here, and expect to be on it and off the grid in 2 to 3 years. I really don't have a lot of time right now to devote to my hobbies, with the saturable reactor thing being somewhat workplace related. We are going to control a large 300KV hipot transformer with a saturable reactor, a big one, wound on a ~500kva core. I was modeling it on a small scale, because I was better set up here at home to test it, before we committed the large project to it. I am an EE, so this stuff is right up my alley so to speak.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 10:03:14 AM by pvale »

BigBreaker

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Re: avoiding electronics?
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2008, 10:10:11 AM »
As always Flux, your comments are well informed.


I still keep coming back to the buck converter on a high voltage stator machine.  Ohmic losses in the cable run are lower assuming the converter is just ahead of the batteries.  Stator heat is drastically reduced.  Low wind performance is greatly enhanced due to early cut-in.  High speed efficency is maintained.  Converter failure (shorted straight through or to ground) generally stalls the machine.  Except complexity, what's not to like?

« Last Edit: March 25, 2008, 10:10:11 AM by BigBreaker »