Author Topic: 1HP 3 Phase Motor Conversion (Read 3944 times)

valterra · « **on:** May 22, 2008, 08:00:02 PM »

I wanted to try a motor conversion, based mostly upon the advice of a "senior member" here, who shall remain anonymous to prevent my poor workmanship from tarnishing his fine reputation. :-)

The motor is from Surplus Center. Here are the relevant specs:

* 1 HP

* 190/380 VAC

* 3.8/1.9 Amps

* 1440 RPM

* 3-Phase

* 1.15 Service Factor

* Cont. Duty

* 7/8" X 2-1/8" Shaft

* 10" X 8" X 6-3/8" Overall Size

It's one big mama by my standards - literally 3 or more times the size and weight of my Ametek.

Here are some pictures. The whole album is here. The following links are to individual pictures within it.

There are six very shiny coils inside. And perhaps best of all, all the wiring routes out into a little electrical box so that you can hook it up however you like. You can see in another picture that the wires are also VERY clearly marked!

So here's our issue. We can't figure out what this Thermal Protection dealie is, or exactly how it hooks into the circuitry. If I knew how it was incorporated, I could bypass it.

Here's what I've figured out so far. Any Help would be gladly welcomed!

I'll post them as separate entires, so if you guys reply to specific items, they won't get all mixed up.

Thanks in advance!

valterra · « **Reply #1 on:** May 22, 2008, 02:04:49 PM »

Stamped into the plastic: XLIXON 04 H56

Numbers are also stamped in for "pins" of the component. Motor builders used a 10+ system so it's easy to keep the numbers straight. Pin 1 on the plastic piece = Cable #11. 2 = #12 etc.

Six of the 16 leads are connected to this device. 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16.

Of those, #14, 15, and 16 exist in the electrical box as well (along with wires 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9)

As far as I can tell, poking every possible combination together with my DMM (AND YES making sure no wires are shorted elsewhere), all of the points are electrically connected together. As far as I'm able to determine, they might as well be one single wire.

Does this make sense to anyone? Anybody seen this type of thing before?

Questions for me? Shoot! I'm willing to do the legwork here (already called Emerson to try to get info) and will look at, take pictures of, or test anything on this motor.

Flux · « **Reply #2 on:** May 22, 2008, 02:09:22 PM »

The thermal protection thing will be a small heater coil in the winding circuit and will trip some form of bimetallic device ( probably a disc ).

It looks to have 3 leads and may be in a common connection to the 3 phases. My guess you short the leads together but you could disconnect them and see which parts of the circuit it opens. You will have to bypass it as you will need to drastically overload it in relation to its current as a motor to get anything decent out of it.

Flux

valterra · « **Reply #3 on:** May 22, 2008, 02:10:37 PM »

There are 15 numbered leads. #10 is skipped probably for nomenclature sake.

If I am figuring correctly, numbers 1, 2, and 3 are one leg of 3 different coils. Numbers 4, 5, and 6 are their corresponding "other half."

Then you get into 7 and above, and I'm lost. If I'm thinking straight, I've accounted for 3 of the coils (leads 1-6). After that, it gets shady, and I'm sure that thermal thing has something to do with it.

** Something on here look wrong? Think I measured incorrectly? TELL ME! I will do it AGAIN, no problem! Like I said, I am willing to do the legwork here. No wild guessing based upon no information in my posts. :-)

& 4 - 4Ohms
& 5 - 4Ohms
& 6 - 4Ohms
& 8 - 7Ohms
& 9 - 7Ohms
& (11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16) - 4 Ohms
& 9 - 7 Ohms
& (11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16) - 4 Ohms
& (11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16) - 4 Ohms

Note: 14, 15, and 16 exist both inside the electrical box and within the thermal shutdown circuit dealie thingamabobber. 11, 12, 13 only exist within the shutdown thingie.

Flux · « **Reply #4 on:** May 22, 2008, 02:12:48 PM »

If it has 6 leads to the thermal cut out it will have 3 heaters one in each phase, just identify the pair of wires to each heater and short the pair.

Flux

valterra · « **Reply #5 on:** May 22, 2008, 02:17:44 PM »

Hey Flux, Thanks!

When you say "drastically overload it... to get anything decent out of it" are you speaking of this specific motor, this motor with the thermal deal intact, or ac motors in general?

My adviser recommended this particular motor (a guess on both our parts). And Surplus Center would be more than happy to take it back if it isn't what I'm looking for.

But (speaking with little knowledge here) this seems like the right kind of motor. 3p, high volts, low rpms, and super-easy wiring (a surprise) - except for this thermal thing.

Next step looks like it'll be removing the device. Looking forward to other people's advice and "pre-judgements" about the validity of the project wrt this motor in general.

valterra · « **Reply #6 on:** May 22, 2008, 02:19:12 PM »

1 & 4 - 4Ohms

2 & 5 - 4Ohms

3 & 6 - 4Ohms

7 & 8 - 7Ohms

7 & 9 - 7Ohms

7 & (11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16) - 4 Ohms

8 & 9 - 7 Ohms

8 & (11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16) - 4 Ohms

9 & (11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16) - 4 Ohms

vawtman · « **Reply #7 on:** May 22, 2008, 03:05:17 PM »

Hi Valterra

All 3ph motors around here have the overloads in the starter.If one trips they all trip to prevent single phasing.

Wonder where this motor is from?

Mark

valterra · « **Reply #8 on:** May 22, 2008, 03:47:48 PM »

if I had to guess, I would say that 11, 12 and 13 correspond with 14, 15 and 16 respectively. The people who made this seem to have put some thought into making the wiring easy to understand.

on the dealie itself, there are 3 pins on an inner circle, and 3 pins on an outer one. It is like two triangles - like a star of david:

On the triangle that points up:

11 on top (pin 1)

13 (3) and 12 (2) on bottom

One the triangle that points down:

16 (6) and 14 (4) on top

15 (5) on the bottom.

Venturing a guess, the inner circle of 11, 12 and 13 which are missing inside the electrical box connect (through heaters) to the outer ring of 14, 15 and 16 and on back to the electrical box.

So - tell me if I'm wrong here. If I desolder the wires nd continue testing the connectivity of the sires, I should hope to find the following pairs:

7 and 11 / 14

8 and 12 / 15

9 and 13 / 16

I wrote both numbers in because bypassing the circuit may require directly connecting 11 to 14, 12 to 15, etc.

Wowwa-weewa. My little brain is getting smoky.

How the heck do you know all this stuff? (my backhanded way of saying THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU)

valterra · « **Reply #9 on:** May 22, 2008, 03:51:01 PM »

Thermoking, made by DOERR aka Emerson Electric aka Emerson Motor Division aka Guy on the phone said they don't make it any more and he'd look into it.

vawtman · « **Reply #10 on:** May 22, 2008, 04:08:26 PM »

That auto restart gizmo must be tied into all the windings and may need major surgery to bypass.

Not sure just an opinion.

Maybe just get a simple 3ph motor.

valterra · « **Reply #11 on:** May 22, 2008, 04:21:57 PM »

what can I do to test whether or not that is the case?

valterra · « **Reply #12 on:** May 22, 2008, 04:46:18 PM »

Snipped / desoldere to find out that 14, 15 and 16 run between the dealie and the electrical box. In other words, once removed from the overheat thingie, they aren't attached to anything.

I will run 11, 12 and 13 out to the electrical box and re-test all the wires starting with #7.

vawtman · « **Reply #13 on:** May 22, 2008, 04:52:35 PM »

Your "advisor" would probably know more.I'm sorta the KISS(keep it simple stupid)type of guy.sometimes

Maybe short the windings with a battery.Don't do it unless others agree though.

Good Luck and we really miss Zubbly.

valterra · « **Reply #14 on:** May 22, 2008, 05:03:47 PM »

Coil Pairs:

1 4

2 5

3 6

7 11

8 12

9 13

Simple enouh now! (?)

racer · « **Reply #15 on:** May 22, 2008, 05:12:50 PM »

Valterra

From surplus center disciption "New THERMOKING model R606410, 3-phase motor. Reversible rotation. Continuous duty with keyed shaft."

I would have to take a WAG and say that some of your wires have to do with the REVERSIBLE ROTATION part of the motor. But I just bench testing my first motor conversion but others maybe able to figure this out better then me.

valterra · « **Reply #16 on:** May 22, 2008, 05:27:10 PM »

Zubbly's stuff always seemed too "heady" for me. I just couldn't wrap my brain around it. Those pictures of round shafts with like 200 magnets on them... what???

But now that I'm doing this motor conversion, and learning a TON. I see all those magnets for the GROUPS they are. 4 Poles, 6 Poles. Nuttin' to it - sort of. He seemed like a pretty bright guy. The good thing is that he can live on here online. He's certainly helping me out right now. :-) What a guy.

That's why we ALL need to share what we're doing and, more importantly, how we did it and how we arrived at our conclusions. :-)

vawtman · « **Reply #17 on:** May 22, 2008, 06:14:13 PM »

If you decide to stick with the motor i've got a freind with 30yrs under his belt rewinding motors.I would be willing to pass your situation by him on your 4pl motor.

The rotor would be easy.Maybe just wind it high voltage according to the schematic and i dont think whatever you build will be able to trip it.

Its weird to me.

tecker · « **Reply #18 on:** May 22, 2008, 07:04:01 PM »

Jerryed all out you could expect 4 amps from each 4 ohms is fine for a 200 rpm cut at 1 to 1.5 apms per and the max will be around 600 rpm think about a max furl at 500 run some speed tests to be sure . Use a cordless and put some tabs in the battery pack to add in a amp meter to get an Idea of the torque needed . You can use a very dense magnet rotor with a jerryed stator .

Waterlogged · « **Reply #19 on:** May 22, 2008, 07:27:49 PM »

Valterra,

If you would like my $0.02, it sounds like you have the coil pairs correct, and leads 11,12, and 13 may have the thermal limiter added onto them, so that it would be in series with three coils. Then the numbers for the extensions of those leads through the thermal switch are 14, 15, and 16. But, I am confused by the reading of 7 ohms between leads 8 & 9. Is that correct? In the motor conversions I did, leads 1-9 came out, and the other three were spliced together to make a wye. The two coils in each phase could be wired in series or parallel for dual voltages. With 12 leads coming out, it can be wired star or delta. I dug them out. Mine had no thermal limiters, so I can only guess on that.

Rod

valterra · « **Reply #20 on:** May 22, 2008, 07:58:15 PM »

Thanks Tecker! You're way ahead of me! I haven't even mounted the magnets yet! Still waiting for advice / hand-holding on that one. But I CAN'T WAIT to be at the "hook it up to a drill" stage.

4 Amps for each coil is more than I was expecting. That's okay of course. I have a permit for a 10' genny, so I can put some pretty hefty / powerful blades on this. But I can't see 10' blades doing 600 RPM? Holy Macaroni! So something smaller I imagine. The carving blades part is what I'm most looking forward to (and the making power with a drill part) because it's what I'm most familiar with. Somehow, it seems like a REAL genny when the blades start taking shape. Maybe for me that's because I have 2 motors (not including this one) that with a 2-hour set of blades and $20 of hardware could be mounted on my roof right now.

This is fun so far. No major setbacks so far.

Flux · « **Reply #21 on:** May 23, 2008, 12:46:09 AM »

I was locked out last night for too many posts. You seem to have sorted the overload thing, now you have identified its wires just ignore it. That type of self resetting thermal overload is typical of refrigerating plant.

Now your question about overload.

Reducing the speed of a machine reduces its potential power output, so when you start trying to get power at 300 rpm from something intended to run at 1500 rpm you have effectively reduced your expected power to about 1/5. That makes your 1hp or 750W into something quite tiny.

There are a few things in your favour, the main one being the intermittent nature of wind power. A 1kW rated turbine will peak at 1kW and most of the time the average power will be in the 10's to 100's of watts. You have also lost the magnetising current that the windings had to handle as a motor so the windings no longer have to carry that.

The life of the windings is largely related to the time it operates above a certain temperature and with wind you can drastically overload it compared with continuous duty at full load as it was expected to run as a motor. Your very brief periods of over design temperature will shorten the winding life, but in terms of life expectancy they count for very little. The thermal capacity and very good cooling will let it average the peaks during the low output periods.

You will be pushing the wire current density up in the region more associated with welding and other short duty processes and the thing will survive, but that thermal trip would come out on every good gust of wind and be disastrous.

Flux

zeusmorg · « **Reply #22 on:** May 23, 2008, 01:33:46 AM »

All three phase motors are "reversable rotation" by their very nature. All you have to do to revers a 3 phase is to swap two of the phases.

tecker · « **Reply #23 on:** May 23, 2008, 04:15:25 AM »

This size rotor takes 1/2 x 1/4 mags well .I assume you want to turn down the rotor . I now use a small drill press and a grinder to do the intial cut it goes really fast . With the bearings on the shaft this will be an easy process . Chuck the long portion of the shaft good and tight as not to scar the shaft and if it gets any vibration stop and reset . The bottom bearing can use a small piece of pipe in a flat vise .

Turn it smooth with a lathe .

The magnet lay out is not to difficult here use little dab of overlap fit them in with super glue and then wrap with filiment tape to test .If it's not right you can put acetone on the glue remove the mags and redo . Draw the mags out on cad . Go to Zub's files . He uses a flat plane representation of the coil segments to design the magnet placement . Just draw it out and wrap it on the rotor to get top and bottom starts.

valterra · « **Reply #24 on:** May 23, 2008, 08:22:46 AM »

I got ya. To read it back to you: The thermal overload circuit would be a problem for our application because we are often (meaning several times a day) running the motor at temperatures that exceed its normally expected operating temperature.

In a shop, or installed as a refrigerator motor, the motor would be driven at a fairly constant speed. If it was overloaded to the point of excessive temperature, whatever is driving it would CONTINUE to drive it, killing the motor. Hence the thermal shut down.

In OUR application, if I properly build it to run at fractional speed during average winds, it will occasionally be overloaded and driven to excessive temperatures. However, the driver (wind) only runs intermittently, making a thermal shutdown unnecessary.

Additionally, an "overload" or thermal shutdown circuit would "rob" us of the power we could harness in those high-wind, high-temperature conditions.

Did I get it?

re: Getting locked out. First, they should eliminate that rule (I don't see a lot of spam here, but I could be wrong). And I've been there! One time I was locked out so long that I finally got ahold of DanB - turns out the software messed up and had me permanently locked. 'Twould be nice to have it at least give you a time to go by. Not ragging on anyone - don't want to get into a discussion about that - our admins do a fine job afaik.

valterra · « **Reply #25 on:** May 23, 2008, 08:26:40 AM »

Yeah, the 7 and 8 pair didn't make sense to me either.

But now that I've got that thermal thingie out, I think we've got ourselves "standard" 3 phase motor. No unusual readings, just 6 pairs of 4 ohm coils.

valterra · « **Reply #26 on:** May 23, 2008, 08:27:44 AM »

6 pairs of leads FOR SIX 4 ohm coils.

valterra · « **Reply #27 on:** May 23, 2008, 08:41:09 AM »

Tecker,

To drastically simplify, what we need to do is turn down (reduce the size of) the rotor by whatever height the magnets are. That way the magnets will fit in the space formerly occupied by the steel rotor.

I really wanted to try GHurd's 4 flat faces idea - mostly because of the tools at my disposal. Hacksaw, sawzall, griding wheel, I could buy some files, but I do NOT have a lathe. Lathing LOOKS so easy IF you proceed slowly, steadily, carefully, and keep vibration down. But I bet I'd mess it up somehow.

Anyhow, put 4 magnets (or 4 groups of magnets) on the opposite flat faces or opposite rounded sides from each other, slap it back together and you're off. Right?

Completely over-simplified, etc., but that's it, right? I'm reading zubbly's stuff, and also downloaded his de-cogging guide.

I'm just afraid of turning it down too much. I've had more than one person tell me that if you go too far, you're screwed. Well, how far is TOO far?

And it seems it'd be so much easier to drill holes for the mags, but my brain is telling me that I've read that idea before - and that it's NOT right because you lose all your flux into the surrounding steel. If it was as easy as drilling magnet-sized craters into the rotors, SURELY Zubbly would have done that instead. So I won't go that route, except maybe some guide holes to show how much I need to turn it down.

TomW · « **Reply #28 on:** May 23, 2008, 12:09:36 PM »

Flux;

With regards the post throttle not letting you post. We had it set fairly tight as we were getting spammed pretty hard. I loosened it up and it times out after 5 minutes now so thats all you should need to wait if you hit it. It used to be 60 minutes to time out.

Sorry it was blocking you. Just self defense mechanism for spammers and jerks.

Tom.

valterra · « **Reply #29 on:** May 23, 2008, 12:54:55 PM »

Well, it is still letting me post, so it's NOT working very well!!! lol. Some self-deprecating humor there.

valterra · « **Reply #30 on:** May 29, 2008, 07:15:11 AM »

Here's the motor ready to get abused at the machine shop. :-)

http://picasaweb.google.com/jehmobile/3PhConversion/photo#5205785386344655170

Cutting it down:

http://picasaweb.google.com/jehmobile/3PhConversion/photo#5205785407819491666

My Guru here suggested the following method:

http://picasaweb.google.com/jehmobile/3PhConversion/photo#5205786090719291746

The idea is to minimize losses into the steel from the ends of the magnets. The "ditches" help take the non-magnet section of the rotor farther away from the stator. By increasing the gap between rotor and stator at the edges of the magnets, we're hoping to eliminate some of the "shorted flux" at the edges:

http://picasaweb.google.com/jehmobile/3PhConversion/photo#5205787284720200050

Maybe add a couple extra watts? Sound like a good idea?

valterra · « **Reply #31 on:** May 29, 2008, 07:16:57 AM »

Sorry....

Here's the motor ready to get abused at the machine shop. :-)

http://picasaweb.google.com/jehmobile/3PhConversion/photo#5205785386344655170

Cutting it down:

http://picasaweb.google.com/jehmobile/3PhConversion/photo#5205785407819491666

My Guru here suggested the following method:

http://picasaweb.google.com/jehmobile/3PhConversion/photo#5205786090719291746

The idea is to minimize losses into the steel from the ends of the magnets. The "ditches" help take the non-magnet section of the rotor farther away from the stator. By increasing the gap between rotor and stator at the edges of the magnets, we're hoping to eliminate some of the "shorted flux" at the edges:

http://picasaweb.google.com/jehmobile/3PhConversion/photo#5205787284720200050

Maybe add a couple extra watts? Sound like a good idea?

News:

Author Topic: 1HP 3 Phase Motor Conversion (Read 3944 times)