Author Topic: AC Felt on Outside of Inverter  (Read 2846 times)

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valterra

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AC Felt on Outside of Inverter
« on: July 31, 2008, 06:33:53 PM »
I have a "large" inverter (1500-3000 watt) and this morning, when I rested my arm on it, I felt something poke me.  That was weird.  I must have a bug bite on my arm.  Nope - there is a tingle of AC voltage on the outside case of the inverter.  


I can only feel it with the thin skin on the bottom of my arm.  My palms cannot feel it.  Very strange.  The inverter has a ground screw, so I touched that.  I know - real scientific and real safe.  I could feel a slight buzz on that, too.  


Out came the volt meter.  With a lead hooked to the ground screw and another pinched between my fingers, I measured 17VAC or something like 8VDC depending on the meter dial setting.  To do another test, I hooked up a 12v LED to between the ground screw and ground (me) and then again between the ground screw and the ACTUAL GROUND but it didn't light up.  I thought with 17vac, I'd at least see a flicker.


Anyhow.  Is this just something I hadn't noticed before?  Is it common to have a small amount of "parasitic" voltage standing on the case?  I guess grounding would be a good idea?


By the way, I was standing barefoot on a concrete floor.  When I sat up on my wood stool, it all went away.  Then I wet the garage floor and covered an area with salt and iron filings....   just kidding about that last part.  But obviously my body was the path to ground.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 06:33:53 PM by (unknown) »

FuddyDuddy

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Re: AC Felt on Outside of Inverter
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2008, 02:01:10 PM »
Yes, grounding would be an excellent idea. Prefferabaly before someone gets electroucted.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 02:01:10 PM by FuddyDuddy »

valterra

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Re: AC Felt on Outside of Inverter
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2008, 02:43:46 PM »
That's kind of a generic statement.  These inverters are generally designed for automobiles, which don't have any earth ground on the AC side.  Grounding the AC side to a DC ground is a recipe for a fried inverter, as far as I know.


Anyone know if a small amount of AC on the case is a "normal" situation?


I don't think anyone's going to get electrocuted by the current in this particular situation.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 02:43:46 PM by valterra »

TomW

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Re: AC Felt on Outside of Inverter
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2008, 02:55:00 PM »
val;


Does it "tingle" you when all the loads are unhooked from the inverter?


That might give you a clue. Perhaps one of your circuits has a ground path? There must be a ground path for the ac someplace otherwise no circuit would be made for the "tingle".


Just a thought.


Heres another thought:


Some folks mount their DC connections directly to wood. Possibly you have such a setup and the ground path is through damp wood to ground this might explain the lower than the ac output voltage.


Good luck with it


Tom

« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 02:55:00 PM by TomW »

valterra

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Re: AC Felt on Outside of Inverter
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2008, 03:42:58 PM »
Thanks, Tom,


I went out and tried a few more things.  With a diode, I can get a TINY little light out of one of Ghurd's LED Light Bulbs (with like 20-something leds in it).


Anyhow.  Yes, you saw the lower than AC output voltage.  Here are some numbers, if anyone's interested:



  1. 55 VDC
  2. VAC
  3. uA (micro-amps) of current through me and the meter and a diode.


The DC voltage on the meter is lower than the AC voltage.  That's weird to me.


Tom-


Your question is exactly what I just got back from finding out, when I read your reply.  



  • No loads - no tingle
  • CFL Lamp - no tingle
  • Extension cord ran inside the house to a television (which is "off" - (notice I said off in quotes before anyone jumps on me about that.)) - TINGLE!


Still to try?


  • Different Extension cord with same television
  • Same extension cord with nothing plugged into it


So I unplugged the extension cord, tingle went away of course, and I checked for any continuity between each of the prongs.  No shorts anywhere according to Harbor Freight.  


Also no tingle if I put one hand on the AC side of the inverter and the other hand on the DC side.  I DID have the inverter apart, and soldered in a wire to each side of the switch so I could hook up a remote control.  But I'm 99.9% sure I got it back together correctly (they're simple to dis/assemble).


My stuff isn't mounted.  I got a tingle when I held it up in the air (barefoot again, garsh).  My DC stuff is all sitting on a workbench - wood.  


Batteries are inside a giant plastic container (rubbermaid tote)


DC Stuff is all hooked up into an old computer tower.  It is chassis (-) quite by accident, but the chassis itself is currently sitting atop a cardboard box on top of the workbench.


I'm trying to find routes to ground, even unintentional ones.  And I'm wondering if this is really an issue or if I should create a path for this electricity to go to.


I remember feeling a similar tingle on one of those cheap aluminum clip-on lightbulb spotlight thingies when I was a kid.


Thanks Tom!


ps - how can I get this not to screw up my numbers?  Using "Plain text" will ruin my hyperlink.  :-)

« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 03:42:58 PM by valterra »

kurt

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Re: AC Felt on Outside of Inverter
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2008, 04:25:33 PM »
ps - how can I get this not to screw up my numbers?  Using "Plain text" will ruin my hyperlink.  :-)


just put a character in front of the numbers as the first character in the line, a space, a -, whatever like this


 100

-200

etc.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 04:25:33 PM by kurt »

TomW

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Re: AC Felt on Outside of Inverter
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2008, 05:09:35 PM »
Val;


Televisions can [probably should, anyway] have grounds on the cable and / or antenna system. Might check that.


One side of the chassis might be tied to one side of the AC. Common in older sets. That could put one side of the antenna connection to one side of the AC and, if its grounded from the antenna system you could get a ground loop.


I wouldn't be at all surprised if a cheap Chinese extension cord had bass ackwards polarity between its ends, either. Kinda shooting in the dark but ground problems can be from a location no where near your symptom area [inverter in your case].


Tom

« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 05:09:35 PM by TomW »

boB

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Re: AC Felt on Outside of Inverter
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2008, 06:37:12 PM »


Sometimes the common mode filter will apply a part of the output to the chassis through a capacitor, but the voltage you would see would normally be half of the fill L1 to neutral voltage (~60V).  Small caps so very low current, but the chassis is supposed to be grounded of course.


What kind of inverter is this ?


boB

« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 06:37:12 PM by boB »

valterra

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Re: AC Felt on Outside of Inverter
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2008, 08:33:44 PM »
Okay.  I'll look at how the television loops back.  I ran another cord when I used my sawzall with that inverter, and there was no tickle with that wire hooked up.  I'll have to check this television with a different cord and also another load with the same cord.


Strange!

« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 08:33:44 PM by valterra »

Colaman

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Re: AC Felt on Outside of Inverter
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2008, 12:18:53 AM »
Unplug the antenna on the TV and try it - I've been tickled in the past in situations like this, with 'hot chassis' TV's. You get leakage currents out on the antenna.....


Not good when you're stripping antenna wires with your teeth :-P

« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 12:18:53 AM by Colaman »

Flux

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Re: AC Felt on Outside of Inverter
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2008, 03:02:30 AM »
I am reluctant to get into this as there are traps and pitfalls all the way.


Things are different in Europe compared with N America because the supply systems are different and if you want to comply with the countries laws and regulations it becomes a minefield.


It helps if you understand what happens in the inverter and what happens to the grid supply. Few seem to understand either but you should be able to understand your grid supply. Whether you can deduce what happens in a cheap inverter is another issue.


In Europe one side of the supply is grounded ( neutral ) for single phase and it is nominal 230v. Simple and no problem if you understand the inverter.


In N. America you have a 220v supply with centre tap grounded. You have no problem with 110v inverters ( similar to Europe). With 220v single phase you have a real problem as the cheap inverters are not designed to have any form of ground at half supply volts and grounding them on the American system usually destroys them.


Forgetting the regulations, they are isolated via the transformer and will work perfectly well as long as you don't ground them. There is little danger as it is a fully isolated system but I wouldn't want to argue that with the rule makers.


On the European system it is perfectly possible to ground one side of the inverter output if you want to but it may not be possible to do it if there is a ground on the dc supply side ( you need to know what is in the inverter). In nearly all cases the metalwork of the inverter can be grounded and should be so.


I generally ground the dc supply negative and the inverter case. I am happy to let the supply float. You have to watch it if the neutral ground is already present from grid wiring unless you know the inverter will take battery negative ans one mains out commoned.


As boB said there can be issues with filter circuits and where they are grounded and you will probably never know what the manufacturer has done. I have never been able to get even a basic block diagram let alone a proper circuit diagram for a cheap inverter. The present world seems happy to live in ignorance and just use things rather than understand anything.


Perhaps the modern world is to complex to understand everything and we have to accept it, but in a time of increasing regulation ans safety consciousness the idea seems self defeating.


For systems not connected to the grid in any way then I would ground battery negative and inverter case and leave it at that. If you can change over from the grid and isolate completely you can still do this but if you just break into circuits wired for grid connection with just a change over switch then you need top grade inverters designed for this in mind or you will have fun and probably smoke.


That is my opinion, now forget all I said, don't act on it or say that I said it and all will be ok. I doubt any of this would satisfy an inspector.


Flux

« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 03:02:30 AM by Flux »

valterra

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Re: AC Felt on Outside of Inverter
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2008, 07:56:31 AM »
As someone who's stripped plenty of wires with his teeth, I know exactly what you're talking about.  Especially since my first experiments were with the telephone lines....  ouch!


The path from antenna to television(s) is:


2 Rooftop Antennas - Antenna Amplifier Unit - Single PC  - Video/Audio Distribution Box - Televisions


Each of those components, except for the antenna, is connected to the grid, either directly or through a wall wart.  That's way more than I realized before I really thought about it!

« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 07:56:31 AM by valterra »

valterra

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Re: AC Felt on Outside of Inverter
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2008, 07:57:06 AM »
done.    :-)   Thanks, Flux!
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 07:57:06 AM by valterra »

tanner0441

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Re: AC Felt on Outside of Inverter
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2008, 03:32:03 PM »
Hi


Just a thought, is it a pure sine wave or one of the spiky things we all use, and how long was your extension cord? It could be the cord is capacitivly coupling the HF component in the output voltage.  I have found you can feel the same thing on some domestic apliances even with paint on them. If the ground screw is too a good ground point it should be OK but bare feet on a concrete floor with an inverter is not the most sensible thing to do.


If you have access to a scope look at the transients on the output waveform.


Hope this helps


Brian

« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 03:32:03 PM by tanner0441 »

dnix71

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Re: AC Felt on Outside of Inverter
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2008, 08:50:55 PM »
Sorry I'm late to this. I looked at your remote control wiring.


I posted elsewhere here about the differences between floating and bonded neutral wiring arrangements for generators and inverters. Your inverter has a floating neutral most likely, because it puts out less than 5KW.


You were probably feeling the battery float because you connected the ac side to the dc side with your remote control setup. You are lucky you haven't fried the inverter.


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/1/26/01035/3964 read this thread. Your remote connects the battery to the on/off switch.

« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 08:50:55 PM by dnix71 »

dnix71

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Re: AC Felt on Outside of Inverter
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2008, 08:56:09 PM »
The on/off switch is only big enough to switch the exciter circuit, not the full battery feed. That remote control arrangement is not safe.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 08:56:09 PM by dnix71 »

jonas302

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Re: AC Felt on Outside of Inverter
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2008, 09:13:30 PM »
The relay in his remote box is no difernt than pushing the switch by hand it would in no way connect the battery to the ac or the switch
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 09:13:30 PM by jonas302 »

vawtman

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Re: AC Felt on Outside of Inverter
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2008, 11:12:19 AM »
Hi Valterra

 Maybe just bond the case to a water pipe(if nearby) using a 8 gauge solid copper wire.

 A thought
« Last Edit: August 02, 2008, 11:12:19 AM by vawtman »

valterra

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Re: AC Felt on Outside of Inverter
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2008, 09:15:52 PM »
That's right - I was going to say, .  The AC side and the remote have nothing to do with each other.  The voltage through the switch measures a nominal 12VDC.  It is not an AC switch.


Besides - the remote isn't currently hooked up!  The "remote wires" that are soldered to the switch and come out of the inverter are currently taped off and connected to nothing at all.

« Last Edit: August 02, 2008, 09:15:52 PM by valterra »