Author Topic: 5kw mornings amusement  (Read 1901 times)

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oztules

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5kw mornings amusement
« on: September 20, 2008, 02:05:09 PM »
Well I had sorted through the battery lot that I was given and found that I had 13 good ones. It was one of those blustery mornings and so I had the bright idea of "lets see what she'll do mister" type of thing going on in my head.


I had also pondered what to do with the excess power that the chainsaw blade mill seemed to be producing. I had read some of Daveb's posts on water heating... so I got the bright idea that I would use it as a dump load, and/or use the mill to heat up hot water.


The obvious conclusion was that in order to have reliable water heating, I would use the batteries to heat the water while the mill was charging. This would allow me to use say 5kwh to heat up some water, and if the mill was in reasonable wind, it would carry the load some of the time, and top up the batteries after the heating was done.... thats the plan.


So I dutifully fired up the mill, and proceeded to charge the batteries a 72v configuration from the 48v windings of the mill... It seemed to be putting in a fairly steady 10 or so amps, and so while it was doing that I hatched a plan to test the water heating idea.... funny how we think sometimes.


Armed with a plastic 1 gallon (4.5 litres) icecream bucket and a 4 ohm load, I wandered back to the battery bank and proceeded to fill the icecream bucket with cold water, and with the aid of two microwave transformer primaries, freshly stolen from two unsuspecting transformers, I put them in series, and threw them into the bucket of water. (The transformer primaries come out complete from the transformers with 6mm spade connectors, and were about 2 ohms each) I spaced them a few inches apart, and hooked them up to the batteries in series with an amp meter.


The 72v bank was now at about 80v, I hooked up the resistor (coils) to see what would happen.


I had forgotten that they were actually wire coils and was thinking only in terms of resistance...


You'd be surprised how fast they move together when you dump 80v@20A into two coils in a bucket....they were now tightly  stuck to one another in the center of the bucket... I wiped the water from my surprised face ... they moved through the water very fast and smashed into each other erupting the water everywhere.... and I  mused...oh well, no harm done... just frightened the hell out of me.


We were now putting about 1600 watts into the water. I shifted the mill input to the coil side of the meter. That way I could see how much the mill was putting in versus the batteries. ie no mill power meter reads 20A, as the mill gets some wind the amps contributed by the battery drop, and the meter moves towards zero.


A gust of wind came along and the meter dropped to zero, which meant the mill was carrying the full load, it then pushed the meter well below zero, with the meter hard on the stops, this means running the heater and charging the batteries.


It was at about this time I had the bright idea of dropping the batteries from the circuit, and see if the mill could do a reasonable job of driving the 4 ohm load by itself.


I repositioned the meter wiring to reflect this change, and the mill was putting out a nice steady 15amps or so.


By this time, the water was starting to get quite hot, and the wind a little stronger and it moved between 15 and 20 amps... all was going swimmingly.


Suddenly a larger gust came along, and the amps went up to about 25, and I got a little concerned, but it subsided as soon as it got up.... then it happened, a bigger stronger more lasting gust came along that just seemed to increase and keep increasing, the amp meter went hard over the 30A mark, until it was rammed up against the end of the meter, A quick look at the volts said 145,-150 the amps were well over 35A, and things were getting a bit interesting.


This lasted for an eternity (probably a minute or two really)... I dashed around the corner to see how the mill was coping... it was running perfectly, no vibration at all, no sign of trouble.... except the blades were just a blur.


I raced back to the batteries, to find steam pouring out of the icecream bucket, and hot water bubbling over the side.


At last the wind eased up, and I quickly re-attatched the batteries, which calmed the mill further, then shorted the 3 ph and the mill stopped nearly instantly.... it was over.


Luckily Zubbly's blade balancing method worked,... but the yaw didn't. Daveb was right about the furling part into resistors. It didn't look like furling.


So it was just over 5kw into a resistive load in I would say a 30 odd mile per hour wind on a 3.5 meter pole. Now it is over it seems good really, but I didn't care for it at the time. The stator was absorbing around 600 watts (.39ohms in star @35A) the load was copping about 5kw (4 ohms) so the stator could have done this all day. The blades worked well, and I walked away with the mill all in one piece.


And that was the morning that was.


............oztules

« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 02:05:09 PM by (unknown) »
Flinders Island Australia

wdyasq

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Re: 5kw mornings amusement
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2008, 08:14:50 AM »
No need for coffee to wake one when something like that happens.


Ron

« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 08:14:50 AM by wdyasq »
"I like the Honey, but kill the bees"

vawtman

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Re: 5kw mornings amusement
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2008, 10:44:21 AM »
Hi Oz

 Glad your still with us and you gave the ticker and turbine a good test.


 Nice work!

« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 10:44:21 AM by vawtman »

TomW

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Re: 5kw mornings amusement
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2008, 11:11:32 AM »
Oz;


Yes, I find Zubbly's [RIP] pendant arm method very good for balancing in my limited experience. My last time was a couple days ago and I used a threaded rod to overcome a large imbalance using an L bracket made from 2" angle iron to hold the rod in a radial position with enough nuts / washers on it to balance.


A fairly detailed and large photo is here:


http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/4415-8-foot-prop-project/100_1415


and here:


http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/4415-8-foot-prop-project/100_1417


Big photos for detail. It was ripping along pretty good but I think the detail is there for folks to copy.


The threaded rod is good as you can adjust your weights in and out to get it just right then lock it all down.


It is spooky to see equipment get into that "its all physics now" mode. Glad it sorted out OK.


Thanks for the share.


Tom

« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 11:11:32 AM by TomW »

jimovonz

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Re: 5kw mornings amusement
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2008, 02:39:13 PM »
Hmmm... Microwave oven transformer primaries in a bucket... I spent half a day running around with a very similar setup in the back of my truck when road testing some Chinese turbines... :-)

Looks like your batteries/alt keep those blades well loaded down. I suppose a 50A capable MPPT controller is next on your list to keep those blades right on peak huh?(once you sort out the furling that is!)...
« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 02:39:13 PM by jimovonz »

luv2weld

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Re: 5kw mornings amusement
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2008, 08:38:45 AM »
I don't think this idea will catch on for a way to take a shower!!!!

Glad to hear you and the mill are still OK.


Thanks for sharing.


Ralph

« Last Edit: September 22, 2008, 08:38:45 AM by luv2weld »
The best way to "kill time" is to work it to death!

Flux

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Re: 5kw mornings amusement
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2008, 10:51:28 AM »
Interesting point jimovonz, this does show how much the performance is compromised by dragging these things down to constant voltage and near constant speed.


Once you let the speed rise with load the power capture goes way up and the stator loss goes down.


In theory with greater power extraction the thrust should be higher and it should furl at a lower wind speed.


It may be that the far increased power is obtained at so much lower wind speed that it didn't reach furling or it may be that the seeking force from the prop is increased by the higher prop speed.


Flux

« Last Edit: September 22, 2008, 10:51:28 AM by Flux »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: 5kw mornings amusement
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2008, 03:48:54 PM »
Good thing that bucket didn't boil dry before you were able to shut things down gracefully.


Glad you and your rig are still with us.

« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 03:48:54 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

oztules

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Re: 5kw mornings amusement
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2008, 05:45:51 PM »
Hi Ron,

The fact that you were not hit by flying pieces of blade from this exercise shows that the knots didn't cause too much of a concern.

To solve the knot problem, I used a hole saw to cut them out to good wood, and used the lathe to machine press fit nuggets of wood, and glued these in. I felt this was better than using sawdust and glue..... maybe yes, maybe no... but it seems to be working out ok so far.


They must have been doing over 450 rpm which for 4 meters is pretty quick.... I don't wish to see them go that fast again though.


.........oztules

« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 05:45:51 PM by oztules »
Flinders Island Australia

oztules

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Re: 5kw mornings amusement
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2008, 06:01:39 PM »
He he he,

Yes, the thought had crossed my mind at the time, or the coils melting through the bottom of the bucket.


The stator holding design is very robust (story here http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/8/18/83321/8140), and I have shorted the phases out at high power levels (1.5kw) just to see how the braking works. No sound, instant stop..... but I was a bit reticent about shorting out over 5kw, and thanked the wind for a lull (not much but enough to calm my fears).


The stator is thick, and the 9 x 1/2" thick bolts probably would have taken it. An added difference I did was to mount the front magnet plate directly to the front of the bearing holder flange, which shortens the length of the stator bolts considerably, and gives a better chance of controlling the stator torque without too much bolt bending. It is very stable under shut down with no shudder at all.


I will make another one with longer mill to pole offset to get more control of the yaw torque for this application. This ones temporary tail is very light, so not much room to move with this one.


........oztules

« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 06:01:39 PM by oztules »
Flinders Island Australia

domwild

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Re: 5kw mornings amusement
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2008, 04:22:11 PM »
Thanks for the intersting story. Well done!

« Last Edit: September 28, 2008, 04:22:11 PM by domwild »