Shop Heaters

[vawtman]

 My insurance company will not allow me to make any homebrew heating devices anymore

 The shop is insulated and 1000sq/ft.Small but cozy when heated.

 I guees the main question is what would be more efficient? propane vs electric. Wind not yet and solar not much uphere.

 Any suggestions?

[bj]

    Hello Vawtman--long time.   Been going through same questions.  The scale is a bit different, but so far, propane wins.  But having said that,

I am comparing direct fired radiant.  You get 100% effieiency, but need some ventilation, and there is a lot of humidity.  So much so that I think

doing wood projects might be out of the question.  Actually machining would be as well, but I coat everything in oil until assembly.  Also I guess it depends on how bad you are gouged on propane, or electricity.

P.S.  I am sitting at the computor, as it is -27C outside, with a gentle

breeze. (25kph)

  Stay warm  bj

[electrondady1]

it's sure cold outside now vman.

and it's not even winter yet!

are you saying that you can't use a real store bought wood stove ether?

[electrondady1]

ok  reread you post

in my uninsulated garage i use a old space heater ( oil or diesel )

for when i need to do some emergency job in winter.

about five bucks a day.

in my uninsulated too small tool shop (were i am building my alternators)i am experimenting with a homemade outside wood stove that blows hot air into the shop

it's much better than last year but it still has some bugs .

like the 135 cubic feet of sand the stove is berried in, takes all day to heat up.

the good part  is that it will blow warm air fourteen hours after the fire has gone out.

[zeusmorg]

 Would solar air panels be out of the question? I cannot see an insurance company negating them, especially if they were passive in design. There would be absolutely nothing that could go wrong. No electrical shorts, no high heat elements to possibly start a fire, no fireplaces or wood burning to cause sparks to set off your stack of wood on fire, etc.. Just nice toasty warm air on good solar days.

 As fas as what is more efficient, all the factors would have to be considered, the cost of the fuel vs the efficiency of the device using it. What may be cheaper in one area could be more expensive in another.

 Here for example, propane would cost more then resistive heating, but that would be more expensive than natural gas heat. This is based on the fuel costs, not the cost of the heaters.

 I use two kerosene heaters in my shop/garage to bring the temp up to comfortable, and have a natural gas heater to maintain that. Other wise I do not heat it when not in use so the only heating is from a limited solar gain.

[jonas302]

First check with your power company to see if they have any off peak programs up here in central mn we can heat for 3.5 cents kwh which would make it a pretty good coice otherwise I think propane is probly cheaper

[12AX7]

Hello Mark...

I'd suggest you look at pellet stoves.  They aren't as cheap as a gas or electric heater but do offer long term savings.   Yes you have to "cart and store" pellets and deal with the ash,  but not nearly the troubles of a wood stove and most insurance companies will cover them.   Most of them are set up to take in outside air for the burn and can be exhausted through the wall.  I have a few friends here in Wisconsin that say their pellet stove/furnaces will heat their 1800sqft+ homes for 24hrs with one 40lbs bag of pellets (going for about $4.00) A workshop of your size (sounds big to me!) shouldn't be a problem for even the smallest pellet stove out there.

They do show up used on C.L. or the local papers.  

Out size wood boilers are also a choice, to meet code they must be installed a distance from all buildings (25ft???) although I understand they go through lots of wood!

[dynaman]

This is what I can tell you. Electricity will give you 3412 btu/kwh  with generally 100% efficiency. Propane will give 92000 btu/gallon, figure 80 to 94% efficent. Kerosene = 134,000 btu/gallon at 80 to 94% efficient. Fuel oil is slightly more than kerosene at 139,000 btu/gallon. And hardwood pellets offer 16,000,000btu/ton at between 60 and 80 percent efficiency. When you plug in you areas unit cost you can easily compare the fuels. In my area with propane at 2.10 and a 92% efficient furnace vs electric at 10kwh, propane wins at 24 dollars per million btu's compared to electrics 29 dollars per million. My 80% efficient  pellet stove however beats them both handily with an adjusted cost of just 13.50 per million btu's delivered. Hope this helps.

[vawtman]

Thanks for the formulas Dynaman

 Here's a unit i'm thinkin about.

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200332747_200332747

 Should run about 3hrs per gallon of propane, right?~.80 cents per hour.I don't heat 24/7 out there so not bad.Quit smokin and it would be free.

[vawtman]

Hello Mark

 Where in Wi are you? i'm around New London.

 Your right about the 25ft from structures.I never asked about pellet stoves.My freinds here tell me they're a messy pain in the butt.My shop is already a messy pain in the butt so a little more won't hurt much  ;v)

 Thank's

   Mark

[vawtman]

Hi Bj

 I was hoping global warming would kick in.However, last year we had record snowfall and so far this year is even worse.

 Good to hear from ya.

 Stay warm and happy holidays.

[bob golding]

hi ,

have you looked at eberspacher diesel hot air heaters? think they might be called espar over there. they are not cheap but last forever and are cheap to run. they are a bit thirsty on battery power though. 20 amps at 24 volts to start while the glow plug warms up but after that just the fan and a few electronics. they tend to fit they in trucks so might find one at a truck breakers yard if you are lucky. come in all sizes from 1 kw to 12 kilowatt. also find them in boats. the combustion is carried out outside the shop so no fumes or water vapour. means you can seal up the shop without risking killing yourself from CO fumes.

cheers

bob golding

[MWatt]

Hi Vawtman,

   I'm down in west central Illinois and the weather gets quite cold. I had my 2 1/2 stall garage insulated with Spray Foam and I heat it with a 220 vac heater from Farm and Fleet (a man's store). It keeps my garage 55 degrees when it's 0 outside and shuts off. The cost is around $2 to $3 a day, depends on the wind.

       Good Luck,

     Long time reader   MWatt (Kendall)

[tnhomestead]

I am using a Procomm for the house, running on low. First year and house isnt done yet,have insulation but no drywall yet. On low mine will keep this place comfortable -- but cool -- and a 20 pound tank of propane lasts 3 to 4 days. Put in a 100 pound tank($70 to fill) and it ran over 10 days so far without running out. Mine is a 15000 BTU model, infrared. Hope this helps!

[dynaman]

That unit would probably be the easiest to install. Check your codes though as some areas do not allow them due to the fact that they can fill a room with deadly carbon monoxide if the flame is not adjusted perfect. My pellet stove is not messy at all to me, and a small one should easily heat your insulated space for less than 3.00 per day running 24 hrs

[kurt]

my friend who is a mechanic does allot of work out of his 2 car garage uses one of these kerosene/diesel heaters. he burns diesel fuel in it you cannot really tell. nice thing about it is it heats up the air fast after the overhead door has been open swapping cars in and out.... and if you have to work outside you can just position it behind you and blowing up your legs to keep you warm.... it uses some electricity as well as diesel/kerosene but not very much.

http://tinyurl.com/5zg44w

BTW. if you try to run a large propane heater like a salamander off of a 20lb tank the tank will freeze up from trying to draw to much propane out to fast and you will have no heat been there done that

[12AX7]

Hello Mark...

I'm just outside the city of Plymouth.

I don't know about pellet stoves being messy.  The models I've looked at either collect the ash in a separate "ash pan" which is accessed though it's own door for cleaning,  or the ash "accumulates" in the burn chamber, and these require the main burn chambers door open to clean.   All those I know who have pellet stoves have the ash pan with it's own door.  None of them have stated that their stoves are "messy".  However they all have a special shop vac for cleaning (metal hose and metal container).

I'd rather store a pallet of pellets than liquid fuel.  

I've been thinking of building my own pellet stove, using an small wood stove and wood bit/auger and a dc motor with a drive board.  If you look at a few stoves you will see that they are very simple (and most are built pretty cheap).  You must control the pellet feed and the draft through the burn chamber.  Of course there are a few other issues..  heat exchange and hopper to feed/store the pellets.

Not to mention...  insurance companies!

There are a few pellet stove dealers in the Appleton area.   And of course they sell them at Menards, Fleet Farm, Home Depot and  I'm sure you'd find them in Green Bay as well.

It might be better to spend sundays looking at stoves rather than watching the Packers..  L

Mark

[vawtman]

 Anybody here have one of these tube heaters in their shop?If so,how dependable and efficient are they.Thanks

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/7E256