Small wind a swindle?

[DamonHD]

I was sent this interesting link today...

http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2009/04/small-windmills-test-results.html

Basically this says that small wind is inefficient compared to big wind, and in urban areas may not pay back the money or energy that goes into it.

Rgds

Damon

[Flux]

Not had time to read it yet but I agree that small wind will never pay back its costs in an urban area. Big wind wouldn't either but nobody would be crazy enough to try.

Wind power needs wind and that means high, wide open spaces if you want good results.

If you have no other source of power then wind does work to some extent even in poor sites but don't even dream that it will save you anything compared with grid power.

When grid power is available there are few cases where wind will compete with it especially if you include batteries.

I don't know why we are doing the " seen to be green " thing just to be politically correct. If you are self sufficient away from grid then wind can be your saviour but if you are on grid in a poor site then wind can be a fun hobby but don't even dream that you will save anything. Leave it to the big boys on good sites with large grid tied turbines to do your green bit.

Things like the Windsave scam have done nothing for the credibility of wind power in the eyes of the general public.

Flux

[Bruce S]

Damon;

I for one am impressed that the 2 H-rotors did just as good as some of the other HAWT types.

I would not be one to purchase any of these for the prices they're asking, knowing my home site in the city, is near worthless for any mill of a size under say 4 meters :-)

BUT toys are fun and a little power is nice.

The HF panels and soon the "micro-VAWTs" that will be up are mostly for keeping my NiCd packs charged so I can run stuff and have emergency power, and hopefully soon will also be used to keep the e-scooter's battery packs topped off.

I am on grid, can't beat the price. I can however, do the 3-R's (reduce( easiest by far to save serious money) Recycle, (by recycling all those wonderful NiCds into battery packs) Reuse, by making use of the NiCds too, I don't have to purchase more batteries , I also save money ) that I can smile about.

Also to teach others on the block that its not as hard as others ( who want to sell them a solution) would have them believe.

Good article. It would be very interesting to see how well a home-built unit would do against these, which if course would have to include the energy cost of each build.

Cheers

Bruce S

 

[DamonHD]

Well, Ecotricity (.co.uk) apparently has an urban-friendly design under development at the moment, and since they do know how to do macro wind well, I trust them to do as well as small wind can be done.

Who knows, it could even be a VAWT.

And I'd like to see a VAWT do well!

Rgds

Damon

[Dave B]

I read the article and there is no surprise here at all. Small diameters little power, larger diamters more power. It's all education and the people who want to learn about what to expect for what size will research it. My idea of small wind is probably different from some others and I would say that any wind machine that produces energy of any kind "works".

 I would never say that small wind does not work. Inflated claims are out there for sure and the "stick it on your roof and power your home" marketing will continue to be around for a long time. Draw the Betz curves converted to KWH and help educate people on wind power. You won't make any friends in the snake oil business, no matter how you spin it you can't get blood out of a rock.  Dave B.

[boB]

I'm not sure if that test is very fair...   The average wind speed was  3.8 m/s

or  8.5 MPH.  Seems hardly even cut-in speed to me for a large OR small turbine.

Of course they're going to get more energy out of a larger turbine than a smaller one.

Especially at those wind speeds I would think.

boB

[Flux]

Yes the whole thing is questionable.

I am not really sure what it was about or what conclusions you draw from it.

There is no doubt that small wind works and on the right site and for the reasonable loads it can be expected to supply it works very well.

Where grid power is available and people are trying to supplement it with wind it can still work but if you are trying to make much of an impact on the average household use for a grid connected home then adding a few small turbines in a poor wind area will never recover the cost of the installation. As far as I could see that was the point of the article.

I can't see this changing while we still draw enormous amounts of power from a grid at very low cost. If we move to a more distributed power system and costs change drastically then things may change.

To stand any chance of supplementing grid power cost you need a bigger turbine and a really good wind site.

If you live on a boat or in some remote area small wind can transform your life but you will be living with your available power and will use it wisely. If you are on grid in less than an ideal wind site you will see more return on your money from not using a few stupid luxury ( but unnecessary) devices than installing a little wind turbine.

For those who do it as a hobby it is probably better to use the turbine to deal with all the modern gismos that run off batteries rather than try to get the few watts from a little turbine back on to the grid, where it makes no real difference. A small turbine is not that expensive but additional battery banks and grid tie inverters will probably never be paid for in their life cycle.

Flux

[tecker]

 They are thinking grid tie .Small turbines are a problem if batteries aren't in the mix . It's fascinating to think of the grid as in the same way batteries are thought of.I 'm sure that would seem insulting but failing to recognize storage in a small setup is short sighted .

[turby44]

hi flux,

       there is something healthy about generating your own electricity through wind power,if you decide to live off grid it is not long before you learn just what you can power with your wind turbine.when off grid you dont waste energy and it stands to sense that you think of ways to conserve your battery bank.being connected to the grid prevents one from using their head properly.

 we power our house with a 2kw x 120volt wind turbine.we never let the bank run low,we have trickle fed reservs that we can fall back on after 2 days without wind. and then we have our solar panels, we run all the lights,tvs, ,microwave and halogen fires are used to burn off excess energy during a storm. anything over force 8 and the tower(30ft)is winched down in seconds,12volt x 12,000lbs.it is lowered onto a cradle where it continues to work  but protected from the worst of the gusts.it has been up now for 18 months and the only thing we replaced was the old type controller for the new type digital with abs.apart from this the system has been trouble free and easy to live with.

   this turbine is definatly not a swindle.there are times during storms when we get a bit worried but winching it down means we can rest easy.this is our second turbine.the first is still running and we use it for reserve.

   we have a 5kw generator but never use it,i can only say that we get a lot of pleasure out of this turbine,ironically there have been quite a few times when the grid has been down and our house has been lit up like a christmas tree so there are good points.in the years to come i will probely get to old to be able to do the things i can do now so i will have to improve the raising and lowering method to fully automatic,i have designed plans for that.

   turbines and solar panels are not for everyone but any family who have access to good wind and clear skies should make a start and learn.its the future.

               regards,

                         turby.