Author Topic: I found a ceiling fan  (Read 6356 times)

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mbeland

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I found a ceiling fan
« on: May 12, 2009, 06:39:06 PM »
It is a Wilcorp model FF52  120 V, 60 Hz, 1.2 A


It has a capacitor labeled: MP capacitor 13 uF, 200 W


It has three wires coming out: red, black and white


I opened it up, it has 18 coils grouped in 9 overlapped pairs. Can't see the connections so far (they are opposite from the cover). Many magnet (I did not count them yet).


Will it make any power as a generator?


Martin

« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 06:39:06 PM by (unknown) »

tecker

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Re: I found a ceiling fan
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2009, 04:41:18 PM »
I don't think those are magnets just Aluminum pours into the core segments of the  cage .It sounds like a good one .The overlapped coils should be soldered at each coil so it's easy to make taps and run the current up . Post some pics and let's have a

look at it to make some solid plans.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 04:41:18 PM by tecker »

mbeland

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Re: I found a ceiling fan
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2009, 10:04:16 PM »
Here are some pics of the fan.


The first one is a close up of the coils

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/9657/openedupcloseup.jpg


The next one is the cage

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/9657/Cage.jpg


The next one is the lid

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/9657/ceiling_fan_lid.jpg


The last one is the back.

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/9657/backceilingfan.jpg


By reading a few other posts, what I think I understand:



  1. - I need to discard the cage and install magnets (or at least find a way to groove the cage to make room for the magnets): probably as many as there are coils (if it is a one phase). Keeping the cage would be handy because it allows to connect the back to the lid.
  2. - I don't need the capacitor any more
  3. -The overlapped coils are there to allow reverse direction of the fan. Could each coil be two seperate phases?
  4. - As it is, the coil wire is too thin to support much current but paralleling coils could improve this somewhat (how many should I parallel? So far, I figure as many as possible, if cogging is not an issue)
  5. - Usually these motors are one phase. If I tap the connections between coils, I could make it a 2 or three phase. Is there advantage to this.
  6. - If I follow the above scheme, I could parallel two sets of 9 coils to get two phases
  7. -I need to make something stronger to hold the blades on the lid


Am I right or completely out to lunch?


Another thing I wonder:


I did not figure out how to dissassemble the stator (coils) from the rotor to access the connections between coils.


Thanks for your help.

Martin

« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 10:04:16 PM by mbeland »

mbeland

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Re: I found a ceiling fan
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2009, 09:34:31 AM »
I read about motor capacitors in Wikipedia and I think I understand that my motor's capacitor is probably a running capacitor used to bring a delay in the voltage to both phases. Without this delay, there is no change in magnetic field, thus no movement. So my motor is probably already wound for two phase. One directly fed by the ac grid current and the other by the capacitor.


If this is true, the question now is how do I know if the coils are wired in series or parallel and if I need to rewire them?


Martin

« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 09:34:31 AM by mbeland »

mbeland

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Re: I found a ceiling fan
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2009, 09:55:40 AM »
Something else:


On the actual cage, the temporary magnets are skewed to reduce noise and harmonics. That could mean that I would have advantage to skew the magnets accordingly. Is that absolutely necessary?


Also, I understand that the magnets I will chose need to be polarized tangentially not radially. Right?


Martin

« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 09:55:40 AM by mbeland »

ghurd

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Re: I found a ceiling fan
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2009, 10:09:36 AM »
It is "sort of" a 2 phase.

The white wire probably goes to the end of both sets of coils, ending like a Y.  Need to snip off one of the coil wires from the Y, and add a wire to the newly free coil wire.

That leaves 4 wires exiting the motor.  2 pairs. Rectify them separately.


Probably need to use 18 magnets. N-S-N-S....


Expect it to cog like a lazy mule.

Take some kind of planed action to reduce the cogging.

G-

« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 10:09:36 AM by ghurd »
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mbeland

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Re: I found a ceiling fan
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2009, 11:35:13 AM »
Thanks Ghurd,


This means you assume the 9 coils from each "phase" are connected in series. Do you recommend I parallel them.


How do you think I can open the case to access the connection?


Martin

« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 11:35:13 AM by mbeland »

tecker

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Re: I found a ceiling fan
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2009, 04:34:33 PM »
Make a ring from thin Flat bar 3/4 inch diameter larger than the stator I think 1 1/4 (homey for 5 bucks ) find somthing slightly smaller in diameter to form around  and overlap . Parallel the inner and outer and bring out 4 wires 18 gage is good .Make sure you get the starts and the ends of each coil solder together right the other side of these has taps cut and retap for parallel coil each coil is 8 + ohms so you end up with 2to 4 ohms per which will cut in at around 200 rpm 12 volt  ( may stall without some resistance or PWM .I'll post a similar motor a little later that I am just finishing a rebuild on the mag and taps to get 12, 24 . You can use thread coupling behind the flatbar ring looks like 5/16 will work or 5/16 brass pipe cut to make stand offs.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 04:34:33 PM by tecker »

ghurd

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Re: I found a ceiling fan
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2009, 05:23:08 PM »
The "phases" are out of time with each other.  And probably have different turns count or wire gauges.  Can't parallel them until after rectification.


I never had trouble opening the case.  Can't recall opening them, so the ones I had must have been fairly obvious.

G-

« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 05:23:08 PM by ghurd »
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tecker

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Re: I found a ceiling fan
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2009, 02:59:11 AM »
Her ya go .This motor is smaller than the one you've got posted . The inner set is low speed the outer is the high speed . All tapped the each coil is good for 1.5 amp or at least I 'll hold it down to that and it should run cool enough . The mag placement is untested I feel confident this slant is good for a start up to 200 rpm that's a little slow to stay out of stall but I have some mods for low speed I've been working on . That's why the rework on this motor .Good luck on the conversion.







« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 02:59:11 AM by tecker »

tecker

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Re: I found a ceiling fan
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2009, 03:06:40 AM »
The reason for the for wire are to distribute the load better and give a center tap for boosting .
« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 03:06:40 AM by tecker »

mbeland

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Re: I found a ceiling fan
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2009, 06:35:11 AM »
Hi tecker,


Thanks for the pictures of your fan conversion. This flat bar ring seems a good way to go. Did you just try to reproduce the slant in the original cage with your magnet placement? That seems a good way to glue magnets on. If I can get larger magnets, I would like to be able to stick in place directly in the case. But I understand the flat bar also acts to redirect the magnetic flux. Is that the intent?


As of the coil connections, here is how I view it. Please tell me if you think I am right.


Original (induction motor):


two set of nine series-connected coils . One end of each set is connected with the other set to the white wire. The other end of one set to the black and that of the other set to the capacitor and to the black. The black and the white to the grid.


Modified (PMA):


Two sets of nine parallel-connected coils. Each set will have two wires. A total of four wires will have to be rectified separately.


Martin

« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 06:35:11 AM by mbeland »

mbeland

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Re: I found a ceiling fan
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2009, 06:44:28 AM »
I understand I can't parallel sets until after rectification but I meant parallel each coil in one given set to artificially increase the wire size.


As of the stator, it seems like the shaft is inserted through it and has some kind of parallel grooves . Maybe I can just bang on it to force it out.


Otherwise, the case seems to have rivets close to the shaft. If these are the way to open the case, I can always scrap the rivets but I don't see yet how to put them in place afterwards.


Martin

« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 06:44:28 AM by mbeland »

mbeland

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Re: I found a ceiling fan
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2009, 06:48:21 AM »
I meant to say each set of two wire will have to be rectified separately. I mean two bridge rectifiers. One for each set.


Martin

« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 06:48:21 AM by mbeland »

ghurd

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Re: I found a ceiling fan
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2009, 07:15:21 AM »
It would be better to parallel them.  

It is not easy because the wires are so tiny and breakable, and there is not much out where it can be worked on.  Feels like doing a tonsillectomy on a mosquito.


Probably better to re-wind it, maybe with salvaged TV degaussing coil wire. I never took one that far because of "workmanship issues" (LOL) in the magnet ring areas.  Meaning I screwed them up beyond repair.

G-

« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 07:15:21 AM by ghurd »
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tecker

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Re: I found a ceiling fan
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2009, 06:27:41 AM »
Put a meter on one of the coils The resistance should be around 8 ohms . That puts 4 coils at 2 ohms or fairly close (parallel connection ) the wire size  will carry 1 to 1.5 amp at regulated power per coil . 8  ohms of this wire puts each coil out of machine wire lengths ampacity wise but 26 to 28 gauge will yield 1.6 average because the power is made internal of each coil. The angle of the core segments is a good start but you want to have the mags of both poles get close to the same segment . Lay them out with super glue look for free enough spin to let you use a 4 foot blade set .You also want to see a fairly good looking sine wave  . Smaller magnets match the circumference better . I used a 1/2 mag in the center because I didn't have enough 3/8x 1/4 .
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 06:27:41 AM by tecker »

mbeland

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Re: I found a ceiling fan
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2009, 07:56:53 AM »
Thanks Ghurd,


I'll see what I can do with the coils one I see the connections. For now, the challenge is still to be able to open up the thing. Yesterday, I removed a small threaded rod on the prop side through which the wire for the light comes out. Doesn't help remove anything else. After that, I succeeded in removing the big cast iron peace which the capacitor was attached to. I end up with just a threaded shaft on the back of the motor, so no other means to open up the thing. I tried putting the motor up side down so only the case rests on the jaws of my portable workbench and bang gently on the threaded shaft. Nothing moves.


Any suggestion to open it up? Do I have to remove the bearing on the prop side?


Martin

« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 07:56:53 AM by mbeland »

ghurd

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Re: I found a ceiling fan
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2009, 09:36:56 AM »
Just ideas...

Is there a jamb nut on the inside end of the threaded shaft?


Is there a snap ring by the rear bearing?  Maybe down under the stator? (that would not be fun)


Are those 3 rivets, under where the cast iron hanger piece was?  Maybe need to drill them out?


It is always the simple things (like "just take it apart") that cause me the most troubles too.

G-

« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 09:36:56 AM by ghurd »
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mbeland

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Re: I found a ceiling fan
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2009, 11:33:31 AM »
Can't see any jam nut.


If there is a snap ring, I can't see it nor access it.


I'll try to drill those rivets...


Martin

« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 11:33:31 AM by mbeland »

mbeland

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Re: I found a ceiling fan
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2009, 06:39:11 AM »
Hi Tecker,


I am not sure I understand exactly what you mean.


Let me see. If I assume 12 volts V=RI means 2 ohms carry 6 amps spread over 4 coils, which is 6/4 = 1.5 amps per coil. So I think I get the first part of your message.


Now when you say "8  ohms of this wire puts each coil out of machine wire lengths ampacity wise but 26 to 28 gauge will yield 1.6 average because the power is made internal of each coil. " I am not sure I understand.  Is it just another way to explain the advantage of connecting in parallel mentioned in the first part? If I follow this line of thought, you think I should not parallel all the 9 coils in one "phase but make that a group of 4 and another group of 5. Is that right?


Then when you say: "The angle of the core segments is a good start but you want to have the mags of both poles get close to the same segment ." do you mean that magnets from each successive poles to overlap so that last magnet of one pole get almost above first magnet of next pole? Do I need the strongest magnets I can get in or is there an optimum limit?


Martin

« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 06:39:11 AM by mbeland »

tecker

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Re: I found a ceiling fan
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2009, 08:21:28 AM »
Split outside inside coils .That should be ok, maybe a faster blade set (test with pvc blades to get a idea of weight and rpm as these can be trimmed easily ). Having the two poles touch the same core segment will get close to decogging the rotor and free spin up to cutin . So start with that angle and 3/8 X 1/4 mags it looks like if you draw a line on the steel ring and place one center the line and offset the two other mags top and bottom of center you,ll be good .The goal is a good sign wave and very little cog . The two seperate coil groups gives several choices . Serial,two parallel or center tap . One thing to remember . There is some slack in these .So leave some space for assembly and bearing wear .      
« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 08:21:28 AM by tecker »