Author Topic: Micro hydro Edinburgh  (Read 7867 times)

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mattg

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Micro hydro Edinburgh
« on: May 16, 2009, 02:53:28 PM »
Hello.


We are embarking on a project to build a axial flux generator driven by a pelton wheel. It will be situated in Perthshire near Balquhider. The stream has about 45m head and a flowrate of 1.8 l/s.

 We are basing our generator on the Hugh Piggott 1.8m diameter wind turbine design, which is rated at 350w. We aim to use brake discs for the magnet rotor and wind the stator to make it suitable for a 24V system. This week we went to a scrapyard and got both a front and rear wheel hub from a Peugeot 206- rear hub assembly pictured below.





Currently our plan is to use the rear hub. We also got a drive shaft with two CV joints to experiment with.

We visited the site and took the head and flowrate measurements, and looked at a few possible sites for the inlet to the penstock (photo below).





We had initially planned to cast the pelton cups out of resin, but were pointed towards cups available on ebay for less than five pounds each- this might be more sensible than spending hours refining our casting technique.


Our questions so far are:



  1. Has anyone tried casting something like a pelton cup? Is it a ridiculous idea?
  2. Any good ideas about making a nozzle?
  3. How do we match the generator to the wheel? Should we start by assuming an approximate RPM and design both to fit? It seems the normal RPM of a pelton wheel is much larger than the normal RPM of the axial flux machines. Obviously the higher RPM we go for, the more accurate our construction will have to be.


We will be updating regularly as we make progress.

Andy, Matt and Hertha


Ps. We spent ages getting the pictures uploaded and the right size...sorry if they are wrong. This was the most difficult part of the project so far.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 02:53:28 PM by (unknown) »

fungus

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Re: Micro hydro Edinburgh
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2009, 10:36:02 AM »
Where in Edinburgh do you live? I'm there too :D
« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 10:36:02 AM by fungus »

Flux

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Re: Micro hydro Edinburgh
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2009, 11:06:49 AM »
Not sure that cast resin buckets will stand that head especially if there is any grit at all.


If my rough sums are in the right ball park a 12" pelton runner should run at something near 1000 rpm. That is quite fast for  magnets stuck on to brake discs but it could be done. You should have nearly 1kw theoretical so perhaps 700W and the axial alternator wound correctly for 1000 rpm should do it with good efficiency. Don't copy the windmill winding it will be far too slow.


If you are doing this with no machining and no technology you will have to be very careful with balance. Similarly nozzles will be crude if you don't have access to a lathe.


To reduce the number of buckets you could look at a 6" runner but you will need a different approach for the alternator with smaller discs and it becomes more of an engineering project than a scrapyard challenge.


Flux

« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 11:06:49 AM by Flux »

mattg

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Re: Micro hydro Edinburgh
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2009, 03:40:11 PM »
Fungus- we are in Morningside/Bruntsfield area. Where are you?


Flux- Yes we are aware of the possible problems with high RPM. We are yet to calculate the number of turns required, and will no doubt be looking for advice on this in the near future. We do have access to machining, but not willy nilly.


The reason we have initially gone for a smaller alternator is too allow for head loss in the possibly not so perfect penstock, and to hopefully prove the idea before spending a lot of money on parts.


May I ask how you arrive at 12" for wheel PCD?


Thanks for the replies!

matt

« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 03:40:11 PM by mattg »

jimovonz

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Re: Micro hydro Edinburgh
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2009, 12:09:40 AM »
Hi, you can choose any reasonable RPM and design both the pelton wheel and alternator to suit. You can generally get more from a given magnet volume with higher RPM though as you say, that may be at the cost of reliability. For a given head you get a given static pressure. For a given pressure, a given nozzle size will flow a set amount. The actual pressure in the line when water is flowing is subject to losses that may also need to be factored in. You need to size your nozle to flow the amount of water you have. Looking your figures up here: http://solar-catalog.com/hydroelectric.html you will need a nozzle around 9.5mm(3/8") to flow your 1.8l/s from a head of 45m (I got this site from a quick Google search, if you care to look further you will find the necessary formula to get more exact figures). This is neglecting line/pipe loss that may or may not be significant depending on the pipe you use. There are pressure loss figures also at that site I linked to. If you keep your pipe size significantly larger than your nozzle size then the dynamic losses should be minimal. In my setup the nozzle area is 1/100 the area of my delivery pipe. A 9.5mm  nozzle has a cross sectional area of 71mm2. To flow at 1.8l/s through this area the water must be moving at 25.3m/s. For optimum efficiency a pelton wheel should run at half the incoming water speed at the point of impact. If you are designing for 16.67 revolutions per second (1000rpm) as Flux suggests then you need your pelton wheel have a circumference of 25.3/16.667/2=0.76m. This corresponds to a diameter of 0.24m (don't forget this is to the point of impact - usuallly the centre of the spoon.

With out knowing the size/strength of the magnet rotors and stator you intend to use, I can only offer general guidelines for matching the alt to the turbine. You really need to construct the magnetic assembly and make a test coil. From this you can determine the voltage produced from a given number of turns per coil. You can also work out how many turns of a given wire size you can fit in the stator and hence the resistance. From this information you can work out how much power will go into a battery at your design RPM (1000?). You can then select the appropriate gauge and number of turns to most effectively use the available power to fill your battery.

I'm not sure about casting your own pelton spoons, but you could probably do a reasonable job (presuming you have experience in this area!). They would probably be on a par with the injection molded spoons I used from EcoInnovation: http://www.ecoinnovation.co.nz/p-87-pelton-spoons-25.aspx. There are nozzles available from this site as well and I believe they will ship internationally.

Flux calculated a potential of 1000w from this system but I get 45x1.8x9.8=794w and believe that if done right you could capture around 500w into your batteries. Easily enough to power an energy conscious home!
« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 12:09:40 AM by jimovonz »

jimovonz

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Re: Micro hydro Edinburgh
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2009, 12:47:17 AM »
Thinking some more about it, if you are basing your alt on an existing design then you should already have a good idea of the volts/turn. I am not familiar with Hugh's designs, does the spec detail the cutin calcs? What is the cutin rpm, how many turns/coils/phases? How are the phases connected? What is the rotor diameter? If you can supply this info and the desired RPM I could give you an estimate of the wire gauge/number of turns you will need along with efficiency.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 12:47:17 AM by jimovonz »

fungus

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Re: Micro hydro Edinburgh
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2009, 01:48:34 AM »
Right next to blackford hill on the northeast side .. and I know a Hertha that does RE stuff ;) .. names Angus.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 01:48:34 AM by fungus »

Jon Miller

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Re: Micro hydro Edinburgh
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2009, 04:12:32 AM »
Hi there,


You need to find some books on fluid mechanics and you are looking for a formula called Bernoulli's equation.  The good thing with this area is that water has been water for ever so old books are still relevant.


I would suggest getting hold of a book called 'Mechanics of Fluids, B.S. Massy 5th edition.  go to somewhere like ABEbooks and you should get it delivered for <£5


Considering the amount of potential you have, the level of engineering required to get 500 watts constantly for even a year will be notable, have you thought of buying one of the shelf?


Regards

« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 04:12:32 AM by Jon Miller »


A6D9

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Re: Micro hydro Edinburgh
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2009, 10:10:59 AM »
i once read somewhere that if you cut a torque converter in 2 you can use the vanes off the pump or soem part inside for a really strong pelton type system.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 10:10:59 AM by A6D9 »

jimovonz

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Re: Micro hydro Edinburgh
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2009, 02:10:27 PM »
Here is a story I posted a while back detailing the intake of my hydro setup: http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/6/11/34653/1661 It looks like your terrain would suit similar. This has been very reliable over the last 3 years or so and has survived a number of significant floods.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 02:10:27 PM by jimovonz »

mattg

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Re: Micro hydro Edinburgh
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2009, 06:02:05 PM »
Hello everyone.

Thanks for all the interesting comments.


We are aware of Bernoulli. From this we have found that the tangential velocity of the runner (at PCD) will be approx. 13m/s. We agree- jet diameter at vena contracta should be between 8 and 10mm. However, according to 'The Micro Hydro Pelton turbine manual', nozzle diameter should be at most 11% of PCD and at least 8% (to limit the effects of divergence of the jet) This suggests that the runner PCD should be less than 125mm. Combining this and the runner velocity we get a rotational speed of 2000rpm. Oh dear!


So our question is- where does the lower limit on jet diameter come from and how important is it? Can we simply do as suggested and decide a nominal RPM and from this find the PCD without worrying about its relationship with the jet diameter? Could we sacrifice the quality of the jet (to reduce RPM) by increasing the size of the nozzle?


Generator wise, we are using the simple formula given in Hugh Piggott's book. Our chosen design has a flux density 0.44 tesla and a total magnet area of 0.011 m^2. To get 24V DC at 1000RPM we have calculated that we require 30 turns per coil, where each phase of the 3 phase stator has two coils in series. Would another option be to wind 60 turns per coil and parallel 2 per phase? At these small turns we will be able to wind the coils nice and thick at least.


Are we using the wrong generator design for this application- possibly we could use a design with lower flux density in the air gap and get better results. Could we just widen the air gap if we find that the generator causes the pelton wheel to slow too much?


Goodnight!

H A M

« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 06:02:05 PM by mattg »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Somebody check me on this:
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2009, 06:45:13 PM »
Somebody check me on this:


  1. (Neglecting friction losses in the plumbing, which would reduce it somewhat) the water emerges from the jet at the speed it would be traveling if it had fallen the distance of the head.  Pressure drop corresponds linearly to head and velocity to the square root of head.
  2.  (Neglecting friction losses in the spoons, which are minute) the pelton wheel cups reverse the flow of water relative to the cup.  The maximum power is extracted when the water leaves the cup with no momentum left and just falls away, so that occurs when the rotor is traveling at half the speed of the jet at the radius where the jet strikes the cup.
  3.  The product of the cross-section of the jet orifice and the distance the jet travels in a second (see item 1) ) is the volume of water per second.   This is what you need to compute your orifice size given the desired flow and the pressure from head-less-friction-pressure-drop at the orifice.


Right?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 06:45:13 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Somebody check me on this:
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2009, 06:47:32 PM »
"Pressure drop corresponds linearly to head" drop.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 06:47:32 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

scottsAI

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Re: Somebody check me on this:
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2009, 08:01:29 PM »
Ungrounded Lightning Rod,


As requested "Right?"


One. Yes, v = SQRT( 2 * g * h ), yep falling object.

Two. Yes, exactly right.

Three. Yes! Once again.


Interesting way to state things. Very good.

Derived from physics for a falling object and confirmed (e5) with Bernoulli Equation (as Jon Miller suggested). http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/bernouilli-equation-d_183.html


Have fun,

Scott Beversdorf.

« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 08:01:29 PM by scottsAI »

jimovonz

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Re: Somebody check me on this:
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2009, 08:47:53 PM »
ULR, yes this is correct. In my attempt to simplify things by including the table in the link, I perhaps obscured these relationships.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 08:47:53 PM by jimovonz »

Flux

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Re: Micro hydro Edinburgh
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2009, 01:38:27 AM »
"We are aware of Bernoulli. From this we have found that the tangential velocity of the runner (at PCD) will be approx. 13m/s. We agree- jet diameter at vena contracta should be between 8 and 10mm. However, according to 'The Micro Hydro Pelton turbine manual', nozzle diameter should be at most 11% of PCD and at least 8% (to limit the effects of divergence of the jet) This suggests that the runner PCD should be less than 125mm. Combining this and the runner velocity we get a rotational speed of 2000rpm. Oh dear!"


This 10% pcd does seem to be in keeping with larger turbines but I never thought it was critical I have never seen these limits on larger turbine design. I do suspect that with tiny nozzle sizes the bucket shape becomes critical and that may be more of a factor with micro hydro. I am inclined to think that the Turgo runner is a better proposition but it does have a higher specific speed and that will probably keep your rpm high but it may tolerate a larger pcd than that normally proposed.


In many ways I am not sure why you are going with this low speed large massive alternator design when you could build a compact and efficient version running at 2000 rpm. If the limitation is self build from scrap with little facilities then I would stick with the lower speed. I can't see that a larger pcd is going to have a disastrous effect on performance but I would be tempted to look at Turgo spoons, I see it being simpler and with the tiny jet and practical size buckets you may end up with the Pelton being hit off centre and running as a Turgo if the division in the centre of the bucket is a large % of the jet diameter.


 "Could we sacrifice the quality of the jet (to reduce RPM) by increasing the size of the nozzle?"


No. These turbines convert pressure to velocity at the nozzle, using a larger jet than your flow can sustain reduces the effective head. You will loose very much more than departing from some ratio of jet to pcd diameter.


"Would another option be to wind 60 turns per coil and parallel 2 per phase? At these small turns we will be able to wind the coils nice and thick at least"


Yes but don't do it. Without slotted cores you invariably get significant circulating currents with parallel coils. Just wind the wire 2 in hand with half the turns and connect in series as before. Uses manageable size wire and avoids all the circulating current problem.


"Are we using the wrong generator design for this application- possibly we could use a design with lower flux density in the air gap and get better results. Could we just widen the air gap if we find that the generator causes the pelton wheel to slow too much?"


I wouldn't go for lower flux, you already have a lot of mass in this thing that is restricting your turbine speed to lower than ideal. I would go for smaller discs, keep the flux density at half Br with nearer 650mT. You may need different shape magnets to get enough winding space at the centre and I suspect round magnets would be better. If you went down to 6" discs with suitably chosen magnets you could probably run at 1500 plus rpm.


Yes indeed you can change air gap to get turbine at its correct speed. That is the correct thing to do but don't sacrifice flux and flux density. Just use it as fine tuning.


With high speed you should manage a good efficiency from the alternator and if you get the cut in right ( but a fraction on the low side) you will have precise speed adjustment with air gap setting.


For higher speeds I would use a radial design but I wouldn't be working with lack of basic facilities, you had better stick with axial.


Flux

« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 01:38:27 AM by Flux »

jimovonz

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Re: Micro hydro Edinburgh
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2009, 01:46:43 AM »
I understand the limit on the maximum size of the nozzle relative to the PCD and the effect of the geometry of the spoon and how it presents itself to the jet of water. I am also aware of the limitation on the size of the nozzle relative to the dimension of the actual spoon. I am not so sure on the 8% lower limit. I would have thought that as long as the spoon is accurately formed, with a nice sharp centre division, that having a smaller diameter nozzle would have little negative effect in itself. Perhaps someone else can shed some light.


Could we sacrifice the quality of the jet (to reduce RPM) by increasing the size of the nozzle?


I presume you mean carry on and use the calculated nozzle size for your height and volume regardless of the fact that it is beyond the 8-11% PCD limit in your reference? Obviously using a size larger than this will mean you lose precious head and hence power.


With regard to generator design, don't forget that if your design rpm is 1000 and you have a 24v system, then you aren't looking for an open circuit voltage of 24v at 1000 rpm. At 24v (or what ever voltage matches your battery at the time) you will not be pushing any electrons into your battery (it will be in equilibrium). You will need an emf somewhat higher to actually do any work. How much higher depends on the resistance of your coils.  It will be a bit of an iterative process. You need to determine how many turns of what gauge wire you can fit in and work out the resistance. You then work out how much current will flow at your design rpm and how much power the alt will need to turn (power into batt + i2c loss in coils). By adjusting the number of turns (and or gauge) you should be able to reach a point where the power used by the alt is reasonably close to the estimated power available from the turbine. To get the best efficiency you need to fill as much of the available space with copper as possible. Of course the 3 phase nature of your alt adds an extra dimension to these considerations.

If possible I would avoid parallel connections of coils (should not be a problem to wind individual coils with n 'in hand'.


I would not deliberately design for a lower flux density in the gap. You will get better efficiency with the highest possible flux in the gap (not withstanding saturation). You can alter the gap to 'fine tune' your finished alt.


What is the diameter of the magnet rotor you are using?

« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 01:46:43 AM by jimovonz »

jimovonz

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Re: Micro hydro Edinburgh
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2009, 02:05:43 AM »
Hmmm... Flux seems to have beaten me to it and covered most of this while I was composing the post :)
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 02:05:43 AM by jimovonz »

Jon Miller

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« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 06:00:34 AM by Jon Miller »


Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Somebody check me on this:
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2009, 03:01:26 PM »
Thanks.


I realized the first part because I'd seen the old textbook example of a water fountain's jet going up to the height of the water surface in the storage tank.  Has to be that way - except a bit lower to account for viscosity and friction losses, of course - to conserve energy.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 03:01:26 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Somebody check me on this:
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2009, 03:04:15 PM »
Should have looked at your reference:  It's Torricelli's Theorem and stated in virtually the same words.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 03:04:15 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

mattg

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Re: Micro hydro Edinburgh
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2009, 03:21:56 AM »
These are the reasons we choose to build the Hugh Piggott axial flux generator. It is a known robust design. it can be made cheaply with minimal tools. It is easy to control. We considered using an induction motor but we were concerned the control would be more complex, if anyone knows a way of controlling an induction motor let us know. If the axial flux generator doesn't work for the hydro turbine we can use the parts for something else. Its fun to make!
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 03:21:56 AM by mattg »

mattg

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Re: Micro hydro Edinburgh
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2009, 03:23:24 AM »
The diameter of the rotor is 25cm (we are using brake discs)
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 03:23:24 AM by mattg »

Flux

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Re: Micro hydro Edinburgh
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2009, 07:22:12 AM »
If you want to build from scrap then you have probably chosen the simplest option. You may have to compromise on the turbine to get the alternator speed low enough to be manageable. I suspect that anything over 1000 rpm will challenge you in terms of balance and bearing losses using car brake discs and hubs.


Induction motors run as self excited asynchronous generators have their fair share of problems when used for direct power. Used for battery charging they are probably not going to give you a high efficiency. The compromises to the turbine will almost certainly result in less losses than trying to use an induction motor with turbine at optimum speed.


An induction motor converted to a pma would give your axial a run for its money but again at the higher speeds would be a significant engineering task.


My choice would be a slotless radial with magnets rotating outside the stator but it would not be an easy scrapyard project. It made a good windmill generator but was not really suited to easy production from scrap bits. With the much higher speed of small hydro it becomes a significant project.


Keep with your axial alternator and take what comes from a turbine that runs it at the maximum speed you can balance it at.


Flux

« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 07:22:12 AM by Flux »

scottsAI

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Re: Micro hydro Edinburgh
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2009, 10:04:51 PM »
Mattg,

Did not reread this whole thread.

Induction motor is very good option of back feeding the grid. (USA: Netmetering)

Stand alone, not such a good option, is cheap.

Voltage control is difficult stand alone (active bank of capacitors is required)

No control necessary when grid tied. (Other than the motor must be spinning faster than when used as motor!)


Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 10:04:51 PM by scottsAI »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Micro hydro Edinburgh
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2009, 06:18:09 PM »
Note that, like excited generators, induction motors running as generators have excitation currents in the rotor which have resistive losses and are replenished from the horsepower applied to the shaft (via the reactive currents supplied through the attached capacitors).  So a nontrivial percentage of your power is consumed by excitation.  (The losses are doubled up, too, because you have resistive losses both in the rotor squirrelcage and in the reactive currents from the capacitors when they flow through the stator coils as they magnetize the stator which magnetizes the rotor.)


With permanent magnet alternators the excitation was provided when the magnets were magnetized before they were shipped to you.  No excitation overhead!  You pay once with money rather than continuously with horsepower.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 06:18:09 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

scottsAI

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Re: Micro hydro Edinburgh
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2009, 10:29:56 PM »
What ULR says is true, to a point. Cheap motors are not efficient.

If netmetering, the total system efficiency can be higher with induction motor/generator. Any other generator will require power conversion with at least two steps.

Induction motors can be had with 88 to 94% efficiency.

Other generators will be hard pressed to match, can beat it.

Stand alone applications, control of induction motor is not easy, other generators will serve better.


High power induction motors are cheap, another application for their use.


Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 10:29:56 PM by scottsAI »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Micro hydro Edinburgh
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2009, 04:36:27 PM »
I concur.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2009, 04:36:27 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

mattg

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Re: Micro hydro Edinburgh
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2009, 03:44:08 AM »
Hello all. After a bit of a break to move workshops and work on other projects, we wound some test coils this week.


We are currently thinking to wind 65 turns of two in hand 1.4mm wire. The stator has two coils in series per phase,and is of the single magnet disc but double rotor type.


We arrived at this number by winding 30 and 50 turns and spinning upto roughly 1000rpm (30 gave 3V AC, 50 gave 4.7V AC). We also noticed that in Hugh Piggotts recipe book he advises to wind 130 turns of 1.4mm in a similar single mag disc/stator/blank rotor setup, rectifying each coil separately, to cut in around 240RPM for 12V. We are emulating this by winding with two in hand, 65 turns then connecting as normal (two couls in series per phase). We hope that this will give us a cut in of slightly more than 500RPM. The other reason to wind this way is so that the stator can be used in a 12V lower RPM machine at a later date.


Are we on the right track? matt

« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 03:44:08 AM by mattg »

mattg

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Re: Micro hydro Edinburgh
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2009, 05:32:34 AM »
To clarify we are aiming for 24v for the hydro application, but hope our stator could also be used at 12v for a lower speed
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 05:32:34 AM by mattg »