final BeUtilityFree comment

[shay]

The BeUtilityFree Better Business Bureau complaint is about completed. Sadly. it appears that John and BeUtilityFree have confused matters further by posting more inaccuracies on their site. They are not responding to my rebuttal in the BBB complaint. It is nearly guaranteed that what you order will not match what you receive. IF you know you will receive 20 to 25% less (or you order 25% larger cells than you need) the prices aren't bad. The Chinese partners and associated companies (Zhuhai, Sanzhen, ChangHong, Seiden) all appear to be reputable but they think everything is fine as it is. I favor ChangHong as the cells and the peripheral materials were well packaged except for a manual and my shipment came from them. Go to the internet for manual details for the old Edison cells....you'll learn alot. My main suggestion comes from a new user of NiFe's: Expect lower efficiencies and a need for 25 to 35% more solar panels than a lead acid based system. Direct importation is the way to go. The electrolyte should be changed more often than every 20 years (maybe once a year) so in a way the consumable nature of lead acids is equivsalent to the consumable nature of the NiFe electrolyte.

I'd like to say that John and his staff are likable people and generally helpful. They are not particularly punctual, seem to stumble around a lot, and it is a sad shame that they do not provide 100% upfront honest service as people are willing to pay the going price for these cells (and for some support). It's not always difficult going into a relationship in a venture that connects China to Colorado, and ships to California, but here the 'cutting of corners' happens in Colorado. I have not tried my cells yet and a recent article in The Economist (keyword "Shoddy") suggests that things can go downhill fast in China so you might want to get these cells while you can.  

[dnix71]

There is only one US distributor for these batteries and he buys only 4 times a year from the worlds sole supplier in China. Under those circumstances you pays your money and you takes your chances. When was the last time you heard someone praise Chinese manufacturing quality and customer service?

BUF's web site refers to MotherEarth News from 1980 and a forklift battery owner from 1972.

Why did you expect this to work? The phone company depends on batteries. They aren't stupid. If NiFe batteries actually worked better than the alternatives they would be using them. The forklift business ain't stupid either. I have never heard of any modern industrial lifts using NiFe batteries.

[shay]

Well, Edison cells are proven for stationary and traction uses. When a supplier specifies a particular capacity cell and does not supply that to the customer that paid for it the problem is simple. As I understand it the production of NiFe's by the Chinese make it possible to avoid the consumable nature of lead acid cells. It's is mainly a matter of price. The telephone companies probably aren't interested in Chinese cells because currently there are not inverters, chargers, etc designed for the broad voltage spread of NiFe's. No one said the phone companies were interested in new technology when they have an established method of doing things. Nor are they interested so far in the 'green' nature of NiFe cells. Only, us poor people/ and some not so poor, (telephone companies can pass there costs along to the consumer) consider getting rid of the lead acid problem. If the Chinese can continue to produce good NiFe cells the odds are there will be more and more used in the stationary and traction field. Off the grid and as backup for on-the-grid there is no doubt that NiFe are superior and cheaper over the long haul. The only thing that might make this untrue is that the Chinese make a lithium (or some other newer chemistry) cell for even a better price. These cells can be directly imported from Seiden, Zhuhai, ChangHong, Sanchen and others. ChangHong did a splendid job on my shipment.    

[bob g]

there are inverters available that take a very wide voltage input, certainly wide enough for nife batteries, check out exeltech inverters mx series, very common in

the telecom business

biggest issue i see with nife is relatively low efficiency of ~60% as opposed to

~85% for a good lead acid battery.

not sure these will ever catch on for offgrid applications using wind or solar to charge them, ,hydro maybe

bob g

[commanda]

I have just placed an order for 8 x 90 AHr Thundersky LiFePO4 for a 12.8 volt 180 AHr pack for my off-grid caravan, costing $1296 aussie dollars plus some local freight. Will put it all in a diary entry when they land here, along with the BMS (battery management system) and charge controller, etc.  Have most of it sussed out already because it's much the same as my scooter.

Amanda

[BigBreaker]

Li-ion is a good partner for NiFe as it has high current capacity.  When the NiFe voltage sags due to peaking currents the Li-ion can pick up the slack.

The only problem with lithium right now is cost but NiFe is pretty expensive too and will always be.  Even if there was a simple solution to the resistance problem, nickel is really useful stuff for stainless steel and that puts a floor on its price.  Lithium is pretty cheap by comparison and there are lots of ways to get it.  The ocean alone has a recoverable concentration and limitless supply.  Currently surface mining is cheaper but these stories about running out of lithium are a farse.  Lithium isn't the expensive part of the battery anyhow, its the cobalt (which is being replaced with phosphate) and the high-tech fabrication.

BYD manufactures most of the OEM li-ion batteries for laptops and phones in China of course.  They have ten of thousands of engineers working on battery technology and improving cost.  Warren Buffet was so impressed with them he bought 10% of the company.  BYD = "Build Your Dreams"

[shay]

I wanted to add that  the relative efficiency of NiFe's (lower than lead acid) for off-grid use may not be reasonable because of the additional cost of 25% more solar panels.

[Madscientist267]

Seems to me that there is more than one reason that these things are not readily available at the corner battery supply shop...

I've dug around in and out of all kinds of articles looking to find out all the pros and cons of NiFe vs LA, and have really only come to the conclusion that NiFe are such high maintenance, with a high self discharge, and unable to handle heavy loading in comparison with their brethren, that they're just not worth the trouble. The only benefit I personally see is that they will tolerate some serious abuse, provided you keep them wet. In that sense, I can see some of the appeal...

Even with that in mind, I doubt I'll ever venture into the technology - the benefits just don't seem to outweigh the numerous drawbacks. And now, apparently customer support is added to the list since they don't appear available from anywhere but china?

No thanks...

Steve

[shay]

My experience with Chinese NiFe representativs confirms what dnix71 has heard about customer service from China. When I began to ask questions both ChangHong and Seiden said, "We don't want to get involved" and if you can prove our products are difficient. then we might listen, other=wise, "stop rocking the boat and shut up"!