Induction Stove??

[Psycogeek]

http://stuweb.ee.mtu.edu/%7Emtromble/induction/cooktops.html#work

hmm why didnt i know about this before?

seems like it truely would be efficient and safer.

[DanG]

Wow. Thanks for posting the information, but I've got a question...

Induction---     90%

Halogen-----    58%

Electric----     47%

Gas---------     40%

EBay

1200. w ($130USD) for countertops - http://tinyurl.com/6ydcn
      
1800. w ($560) for drop in models - http://tinyurl.com/4uxmv
      
      

"1800w output compares to 16,000 BTU burner"

I guess maximum draw of a 1200w unit is 55 Amp/hour drain from 24 battery; but at nearly double the efficiency of resistance IS this a good alternative cooking utensil for off the grid applications??

[DanG]

http://tinyurl.com/56euw ($149)

This vendor states efficiency at 83% for 1200w unit...

For ease of use it sure looks painless...

[Psycogeek]

I was hoping somone here would know.

i assume that it is only THAT efficient when used with thier overpriced perfected pans.

but a person can achieve almost 50% more efficiency by using a simple lid of any sort.  so if they cheated the specs :-)

if resistive is 15-1800Watt units, and these are so durn efficient, then why arent they maxxed out at 900W instead of 1200W.

and is there another slight fudging going on too?

 example 1

 were supposed to think a 13W florescent is 13W, it isnt, its 17 watts, the BULB might be 13w, but the whole fixture (required) is 17w.

example 2

microwaves take 2X the ammount of energy that they say on the front of them. my 700W microwave takes 1400W of power to make 700W of waves.

and in my wattage comparison testings, a microwave is not more efficient, for cooking anything. a pan with a lid on it is faster at the same wattage.

a small toaster oven is faster at the same wattage.

and Induction has a lot of losses i thought??

BUT if indeed the heat started at the PAN, instead of the burner, that part of it would be vastly efficient, depending on burner contact. like nice flat burners, with copper based aluminum pans, that sit flat and perfect on them.

HERE the gas is cheaper because we are HIGH on the tiered pricing chart.

but if i go solar, and this is a smar thing, then this looks like a way to go?

[jimjjnn]

1st induction stove I saw was over 10 years ago in an energy efficient home in Thornton , Colorado. It also had a convection oven. The owners that own it now removed the induction stove top. Said they didn't like having to use steel or iron pots and pans. They also, have blocked their passive heating windows with trees and such. They have a Trombe wall-fireplace that no longer stores heat as the windows don't have sunlight coming in.They also had solar panels for hot water and have removed them and installed a boiler.

Could people be any more stupid than this?

[DanG]

Probably the 85% efficiency quote is only (%) bridging between the cookware and the "under the glass whatever-tron" - the overall Kilowatt hour to BTU throughput dosen't seem to be mentioned anywhere (consumer reports blah blah)

Does just a microprocessor controller make it better (and by how much) then my 50 year old Westinghouse electric frying pan? Some inductance formula I can't quite remember puts line and whatever-tron conversion losses as more lossy than the heat conductance figure they keep quoting.

A Kw/H has about 3400 BTU energy in it. 1 pound water at 70° plus 142 BTU makes 1 pound water at 212°. The 1200 watt unit has 4,800 potential BTUS then subtract appliance loss 15%? (3500) BTU less again 15% transfer loss gives (3000) BTU, or, the unit might take 2.5 gallons to boiling in an hour - even with my guessing here how does that compare to straight resistance heating??

I know Propane 98,000 btu / gallon but only 35% conductance does 10 times the work, but the hassle factor of fumes, maintanance and replensishment vs. renewable Kw/H useage puts having cooking-only propane way awkward...

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

Induction---     90%

Halogen-----     58%

Electric----     47%

Gas---------     40%

Note that, in terms of efficiency when using fuel-generated electricity, this makes gas the best.  And it would be true even if the Induction were 100% efficient at heating

the food.  Burning gas to make power means heat engines and throwing away 2/3 to 3/4 of the heat.  (Much more if it's a small gas-fueled genny rather than an industrial plant  that can afford to find-tune all the processes and scavenge every bit of power that otherwise might be wasted.)  Better (in terms of efficiency) to use the gas flame directly.

Gas also has the advantage of being very fast and controllable.

Of course if you've got a couple extra KW of generation capacity just heating your dump load most of the time, it's a great deal.  Nothing is more "efficient" than using power that would otherwise be thrown away (achieving 0% efficiency).  B-)

If you have a big battery bank that can take a few KWhr of cycling without appreciable impact on cell lifetimes and can comfortably cover for adverse power-weather when starting out a couple KWhr down, you might decide to put in an electric burner or two next to your fuel burners, and cook with juice when the bank is topped off, with fuel otherwise.

If you do that an induction burner might give you more oportunities to cook without burning fuel.  But is it worth the cost?  Or would it be better use that money to upsize your panels/genny and battery bank, and use a cheaper "burner" or your microwave when the opportunity arises.  Bigger batteries and generation capacity also help things OTHER than cooking, so a straight price comparison undestates their utility.

[GeoJohn]

Your comment "Could people be any more stupid than this?" just absolutely ignores the total costs of energy efficiency.

Just consider an induction stove. How much energy costs are involved in cooking on a stove per year? I can tell you it costs about $100 each year for propane to run my gas stove and it is 50 years old with 6 pilot lights burning constantly. Now consider that in the 6 months a year when I heat my house with oil any stray heat generated by the stove heats my house directly and reduces my oil bill, so let's drop the cost per year of cooking with gas to $60.00. Next figure out the cost of the special cookware required. I just bought a set of 3 stainless stock pots at Walmart for $17.00. Are they thin and cheap? Yes. But the 2 nice stock pots I wanted cost $45.00 EACH. How much do you think a "induction Stock pot" will cost? Then multiply that cost by two. How about a good non-stick frying pan to cook eggs in? They last about 9 months in my house. For a decent aluminum one: $7.00 each anywhere. Once again, price out induction cookware.

Now consider when you want to sell your house. People like cooking with gas. Try an explain that crazy cook top to a buyer and drop your selling price by $1500 to $3000.

How about solar panels? Even if they are covered with glass they have a limited life time and high maintainance costs. The necessary tanks and pipes take up space in the house and the panels drastically increase the cost of maintaining a roof. Any snowfall where I live shuts down solar panels until the snow melts or slides off. You have to have two heating systems because total solar houses just do not exist in the real world.

As far as planting trees to block windows. I value my privacy and do not want to live on a bare lot. Also trees act as a windbreak and reduce heating costs in the winter.

Fireplaces and trombe walls? If they actually worked, they would still be being built.

Once you start doing a thorough accounting of the total costs of alternate energy, the cost most of the mainstream energy sources prove to be the most economical.

[jimjjnn]

They got rid of the induction stove to use a standard electric cooktop. The solar hot water panels were operating fine and not on the roof. They were mouted above a balcony and were in a drainback configuration and had no problems only 2 pumps involved and the small one was for the panels. The 2nd one is still there along with 2 others since they now have to heat their great-room with hot water. Before, they had a small backup boiler for supplemental heat. Now, the boiler is almost 3X capacity. The looks of the house is strange now since their neighbor now has their old hot water system and the house was originally designed with the panels as part of the styling. The neighbor said he now has less than 1/2 the heating expense since he bought the old system. He owns a plumbing business and installed the system exactly as it was installed before, and loves it. He stated that the people didn't understand the system and wanted a standard system.

The house was in the early alternative energy tours held annually til the house was sold.

[hydrosun]

I bought a stand alone induction cooker oon ebay for about  $70 including shipping. It came with one thin 18/10 stainless steel pot. I have a nice stainless pressure cooker that I used to can up a bunch of squash this fall. I'm able to cover the pot with a towel without worrying about it catching on fire. It really keeps the heat in.  We cooked a corned beef  in it and had the burner shut off for most of the 3 hours it cooked and the pressure stayed up.

The induction cooker has power losses like a microwave oven in the conversion from 60 hertz to high frequency. But the heat goes where you want it, into the food.   But a simple resistance heater in something like a rice cooker that has the heating element surrounded by insulation probably is more efficient . Bottom line, make the heat go where you want it and keep it there with insulation.

One other point with the induction cooker. If it is the only load on the inverter it may not work. Mine has confused my Outback inverter and doesn't always bring it out of sleep mode. But  if I put something else on it works fine. Once started I can shut the light off.

Chris

[GeoJohn]

I still maintain the cost of energy for cooking is trivial and I claim the difference between electrical induction and electric resistance heating is not worth considering in the larger picture.

It is very interesting that the neighbor owns a plumbing business. Did the cost of the system factor in the installation of the second hand parts? Also, you simply can not calculate the true cost of alternate energy by comparing the total cost of second hand or discarded components against the cost of new "mainstream" components. I don't care how many discarded induction stove tops you can buy off Ebay or used fork lift batteries you can get from the scrap yard. The truth is all of these components are at the end of their useful lives. The supply of this junk is miniscule and any economic argument based on junk yard bottom feeding is totally invalid. That a plumbing contractor can install second hand solar panels on a roof and make them work is not a viable argument for the economics for alternate energy.

[Psycogeek]

good points all.

i was thinking about the simple electric griddle, after what you said, its a pan that heats itself :-) so to speak. little losses from poor conduction to the pan thing.  while limited in what you can cook in it, there is also crock pot type things.

but to me a crock pot, is the total opposite of efficiency, cook something 10X longer then nessisary to shove into face :-)

i didnt know it used high frequency, i guess you could ude it to desulphate your batteries when your not using it for heat :-)

[jimjjnn]

Plumbing contractor ran white vinegar into the panels to eliminate any deposits. Then soldered them into 2 sloping pipes,installed a grundfos pump, used the old diff controller with 2 new thermocouple sensors, started it up and it ran for 4 months. Pump failed so he installed a Taco pump and it has been running over 5 years now. 12 panels at $15 US each and a days labor removing from neighbors house. A week installing on his house. I'd say he got a great deal for 12 panels and his labor.

[zap]

jimjjnn I live in old Thornton and would like to take a look at these houses.  I'm off 88th... where are these?  Kinda funny reading your post because just today my Dad and I took the 3 panels off his house in Littleton that we built and installed in the early 80's.

[jimjjnn]

It was   listed  6 years ago in the    solar tour . I don't have the listing but it is in "The Ranch" just off 120th. Don't recall exact address. The house that the panels came off is no longer listed tho as it is no longer energy efficient. The plumber is on same curving street (106th Ave? around Huron st) I believe. Plumbers place easy to spot as he has about 20 various sized PV panels on his roof. Water panels on so facing front just under eaves. I wiil see if I saved the info from the tour year before last as I think the address was in the brochure for the plumbimg contractors place.

[Psycogeek]

Hydrosun

i forgot the main question i would want to ask anyone who tried one of these.

If you put exactally 1 cup of water in a pan, and took it from normal tap cool, like 60-65* how long would it take to boil? with no lid.

OR

What was your impression of its power output capcity.

warm up time, and all.

like an old COIL hotplate with the small coil, is MUCH slower than a 1500W stovetop burner, but that was ok, for that device.

will an induction cooktop at 1200W char 5 burgers at once?

will it brown 2 lbs of hamburger in a few minutes

was it slow Compareed to a normal stove, gas or electric, reguardless of how much power it used.

[Psycogeek]

i agree with GeoJohn

people are to buttarse lazy to do anything other than waste things.

if they were running out of power , and people were dying from the ramifications of the power generation, they would probably prefer to slaughter a few of thier neighbors than to conserve :-)

if they can go do thier corporate slavery jobs, and get enough funds to run out 2x the size of thier house, and 2000X the size of thier person into the dump, they would far rather do that.

people work HARD justifying the ideas that we can keep toxifying, destroying everything, and killing mid-easterners to have what we want :-)

they complain like sombody cut off thier source of food, when the price of gass goes up 20c , yet all of eastern europe pays 2x that.

we spend 400Billion dollers in taxes a year, feeding the fire breathing dragon, and never put that into the costs that were paying, as long as the psudo economy, proped up by toothpicks, keeps thier corporate slavery jobs in operation, so they can sit in thier recliners, fire up thier 350W plasma screens and waste thier brain on the boob tube.

there are just some days when i wish i wasnt like that :-)

[zap]

Thanks Jim, I just finished up some remodel work on the country club at the Ranch so maybe I'll head up and do a little scouting.  It's just about time for the annual "trade-ur-trash" week(free bulk trash collection) here in Thornton so I need to be doing some scouting around anyway.