Author Topic: Underfloor hot air  (Read 1466 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

NeilTheBrit

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Underfloor hot air
« on: July 21, 2006, 11:43:58 PM »
Any input on this would be much appreciated.

I have a 1500 sq ft single story in Southern New Mexico with a climate of 100F in Summer and 10F in Winter, with very little snow or rain. 1100 sq ft is constructed with a perimeter wall, footings, joists and an uninsulated wood floor, I have about 3300 cubic feet of crawl space. The rest of the house is an addition on a concrete slab. The front of the house faces due South and I have an open area of 25' long by 9' wide to play with.

My idea is to make ground mounted solar collectors with approximatly 200 sq ft of twin or triple cell plastic glazing and black painted corregated aluminium for heat absorbtion. As it's ground mounted and weight is not an issue, I was going to use a lean too type arrangement, and use steel water filled drums as heat storage.

I plan to get into the crawl space and glue 4" thick expanded polystyrene insulation to the perimeter walls, the existing ventillation holes in the brickwork would have closeable shutters fitted to them, so I could close them in the Winter and open them in Summer. On the ground I plan to lay plastic sheeting as a vapor barrier and blow in a 4" thick layer of cellulose insulation.

Now this is where I need input.

My plan is to circulate the air from the now insulated crawl space thru the panels and back again to give myself underfloor hot air heating.

Has anyone ever heard of this being done before, and do you think it would work?.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2006, 11:43:58 PM by (unknown) »

wdyasq

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1324
Re: Underfloor hot air
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2006, 06:37:23 PM »
I think you will be better served with some different styles of insulation and collection. Your method will work. It will be better if you do a bit of research on the insulation methods and collection methods.


There is little to be gained by trying to recirculate the air according to what I have read and observed. Several layers of expanded metal painted black or even screen wire is a better colelctor according to research. But, don't let facts and research shape your project...... it is against the nature of the posters of this site.


Ron

« Last Edit: July 21, 2006, 06:37:23 PM by wdyasq »
"I like the Honey, but kill the bees"

GaryGary

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 411
    • Build-It-Solar
Re: Underfloor hot air
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2006, 08:48:55 AM »
Hi,


Sounds like a great project -- a couple thoughts:


200 sqft of collector is a good amount for a 1500 sqft house -- it will definitely make a big dent in your heating bill -- especially given that you live in a good sun area.


I would think about making the collectors vertical.  The advantage of this is that they will have much less tendency to overheat in the summer.  I pasted in two runs from Radiation On Collector below -- the first shows the radiation on 1sqft of collector tilted at 40 degrees, and the other with the collector vertical.  You can see that they both collect about the same amount in the winter, but in the summer, the vertical collector only collects about 1/4 to 1/3 as much as the tilted one -- this is good.

In your climate, an overhang to further reduce the summer gain might be in order.  You can design it with overhang tool here:

http://www.builditsolar.com/References/SunChartRS.htm#Overhangs

The other advantage of vertical collectors is that they benefit from ground reflections -- especially if you have snow on the ground.


I think that triple wall polycarbonate is probably overkill -- the dual wall is quite a bit cheaper, and should work fine.  Be sure to get the stuff with the UV coating on the outside, and be sure to get Polycarbonate, as it has a very good (270F) temperature capability.  I'd think about going with the half inch or thicker stuff -- its easier to handle and work with and needs a bit less support.  You may want to think about some way to vent your collectors in the summer.  It would be easier on them if they were not exposed to high temps all summer -- this is really true if you go with tilted collectors -- they will just cook in the summer without some kind of venting.


On the collector.  There are two kinds of air collector design that I think work well.  The thermosyphon design uses the bouyancy of air to move air through the collector -- no fans or controllers needed.  These have to be designed carefully in that if flow passages are to tight, you end up with low flow rates, high temperatures, high losses and an inefficient collector.  Flow through absorbers work best on these thermosyphon collectors -- the air is introduced at the bottom on the sun side of the absorber, and flows up and back through the absorber and leaves the collector at the top on the back side of the absorber.  People have used expanded metal lath (several layers), furnace filter media, and 2 or 3 layers of ordinary black window screen.  This is the thermosyphon collector I use for my shop.  $350 for 120 sqft, and it works very well -- has a 1 year payback.

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/solar_barn_project.htm

The article at the link tells you how to size the vents and air passages.


The other air collector design that works well is the backpass, solid metal absorber, fan forced flow.  Basically this is a solid metal absorber that has flow passage behind it that is about 1 inch deep that air is cirulated through at the rate of about 2.5 cfm per sqft of collector.  The airspace behind the absorber needs to be baffled such that air gets to all parts of the collector.  The travel length for the air from inlet to exit should be around 20ft to get adequate heating.  The 1 inch and 2.5 cfm are important in that they ensure you get good mixing of the air, and lots of air contact with the absorber.

I just put up a really good book on designing and building this type of collector:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/SolAirHtSysBook/SolAirHtingBk.htm

Thanks to the authors, its a free download!


There may be other good collector designs besides these two, but bear in mind that there are a lot more bad designs out there than good ones :)


The book also has quite a bit of material on using the crawl space as a way to distribute heat from an air collector.  I think that converting your crawl space to a conditioned space is a good thing to do whether you use it in your collection scheme or not.  I did this to mine, and have been very happy with the results.  I'm not sure you really need to vent it any time of year -- the stuff I have been reading indicates humidity levels in conditioned crawl spaces are lower all year long than form vented spaces, but you might want to do some checking on that.

Using the crawl space to distribute heat might also make sense -- I'd read that part of the book above and see what you think.  One advantage of using the crawl space for heat distirbution is that you get some thermal mass from the floor/walls/dirt and that helps to prevent overheating in the afternoon, and provides some heat from the mass in the evening.  You could also think about some mix of routing the collector output directly into the house and into the crawl space.  This might allow you some control over how fast you get heat in the morning, and not overheating in the afternoon.


Gary


Radiation on Collector runs -- look at the "Total" column

40 degree collector tilt

Month by Month Summary of Sun on Collector

(100% sunny weather)


  Collector Area:        1.0 (sqft)

  Collector Azimuth:     0.0 (deg) measured from South

  Collector Tilt:       40.0 (deg) measured from horiz

  Latitude:             40.0 (deg)

  Altitude above SL:     0.0 (ft) Above Sea Level


Date ----  Sun ----------------  Collector -----------------------

Month Day  Direct   Di-   Total    Direct      Difuse     Total

           Normal   fuse

   1   21   2192     127   2320       1707        112       1820

   2   21   2600     156   2756       2002        137       2139

   3   21   2917     207   3124       2147        183       2330

   4   21   3095     302   3397       2053        266       2320

   5   21   3162     384   3545       1924        339       2263

   6   21   3181     426   3607       1849        376       2225

   7   21   3061     416   3477       1863        367       2230

   8   21   2914     354   3268       1946        313       2259

   9   21   2713     252   2966       2009        223       2232

  10   21   2429     176   2605       1887        155       2043

  11   21   2121     133   2254       1654        118       1772

  12   21   1974     113   2087       1532        100       1632

Sum        32359    3046  35404      22574       2690      25264


Radiation in BTU/day


Vertical Collectors:

Month by Month Summary of Sun on Collector

(100% sunny weather)


  Collector Area:        1.0 (sqft)

  Collector Azimuth:     0.0 (deg) measured from South

  Collector Tilt:       90.0 (deg) measured from horiz

  Latitude:             40.0 (deg)

  Altitude above SL:     0.0 (ft) Above Sea Level


Date ----  Sun ----------------  Collector -----------------------

Month Day  Direct   Di-   Total    Direct      Difuse     Total

           Normal   fuse

   1   21   2192     127   2320       1665         64       1729

   2   21   2600     156   2756       1657         78       1735

   3   21   2917     207   3124       1380        104       1484

   4   21   3095     302   3397        864        151       1015

   5   21   3162     384   3545        525        192        717

   6   21   3181     426   3607        397        213        610

   7   21   3061     416   3477        495        208        704

   8   21   2914     354   3268        808        177        985

   9   21   2713     252   2966       1277        126       1403

  10   21   2429     176   2605       1571         88       1659

  11   21   2121     133   2254       1618         67       1685

  12   21   1974     113   2087       1586         57       1643

Sum        32359    3046  35404      13843       1523      15366


Radiation in BTU/day

« Last Edit: July 22, 2006, 08:48:55 AM by GaryGary »

Don Cackleberrycreations

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 79
Re: Underfloor hot air
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2006, 09:14:45 AM »
first off typing may be worse than normal ( some fool smashed his index finger a little bit ago)

   One thing to watch on using a crawlspace as basicly duct work or radiant heat space is radon. before you put your plasic and insulation down . I would recomend laying some perforated pipe and venting this to the outside.  this will help to preventany radon gas build up in the future.

    Personally using blown in insulation in a crawlspace is asking for trouble or at the very least problems in the furture . Ridgid foam would be a much better choice.

A plumbing leak would make a mess of blown in insulation as would any seepage.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2006, 09:14:45 AM by Don Cackleberrycreations »