Author Topic: Earth tube AC  (Read 7571 times)

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Old F

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Earth tube AC
« on: August 23, 2006, 10:49:15 AM »
Earth tube AC


Found an interesting web site


Found this site some time a go  Very interesting reading


http://mb-soft.com/solar/saving.html


I am putting up a new shop  an thinking of giving this a try  while everything all ready  torn  up


One of throes while were at its that  all ways  run the budget up :  )


Any one have any other info or sites ?  If  this pans out for the shop I am thinking of retrofitting the house.


Old F


Having so much fun it should be illegal

« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 10:49:15 AM by (unknown) »
Having so much fun it should be illegal

electrondady1

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Re: Earth tube AC
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2006, 06:04:30 AM »
i've thought about this alot(every summer)

 but i can't see a solution for the moisture that will condense inside the tube under ground.

i would think something nasty will begin to live in there and then you would be breathing it.

you would need to keep it dry or be able to decontaminate somehow
« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 06:04:30 AM by electrondady1 »

lohearth

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Re: Earth tube AC
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2006, 06:37:38 AM »


  Maybe do it with a water line connected to 12v pump and a radiator with the fans still attached. That way you could keep it connected to a small windmill and a small battery bank. I prefer small independant systems in case of failures and the main system goes down. Would require some thought and planning but doable. Also thought of doing the same thing with the cold water supply. Would certanly help stop the toilet from sweating so much. Just a thought.


              Lohearth      

« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 06:37:38 AM by lohearth »

Countryboy

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Re: Earth tube AC
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2006, 06:56:20 AM »
I've always been a fan of earth tube AC.  The technology has been used for over 2000 years, starting with the Persian qanats.


Microbial and bacterial growth is virtually non-existant underground.  Most caves are very pristine environments.


Eliminating problems of water condensation is very easy.  Just point the air entrance downhill, just like drainage tile works.  Drain the condensation away from your home.

« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 06:56:20 AM by Countryboy »

kitno455

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Re: Earth tube AC
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2006, 08:29:24 AM »
but the water condenses inside the tube, and stuff grows in there, and you are blowing air over it and back into the building. seems like you need some way to keep the tubes from growing things. legionare's disease anyone?


allan

« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 08:29:24 AM by kitno455 »

Old F

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Re: Earth tube AC
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2006, 08:46:29 AM »
The above site recommends that you pitch  things so that the condensation drain towards the air outlet side to a sump and pump it out.  This is what I plan to do.


All so plan to add a HEPA filter bank with a UV light to play it safe.


Use a little more power this way  but no way near as much as a standard AC.

And with just a fan and UV light it will be  easy to run off back up power if needed.


Old F

« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 08:46:29 AM by Old F »
Having so much fun it should be illegal

Gary D

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Re: Earth tube AC
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2006, 10:27:40 AM »
When you posted this a few years back, they had a water tube alternative system. There would be no bacteria issues with it... You'd just need to fill it up and pump water thru a/several radiaters as needed. This was and is more intregueing to me. Just need to have a drain to collect the condensation on the radiators... Didn't see the water option this time, but it makes sense to this warped mind! Glad you reposted this link... :-) Gary D.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 10:27:40 AM by Gary D »

Old F

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Re: Earth tube AC
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2006, 10:33:16 AM »
Gary


They still tell about a water filled system

you have to dig around to find it.


Its a big read.


Old F

« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 10:33:16 AM by Old F »
Having so much fun it should be illegal

asheets

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Re: Earth tube AC
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2006, 11:16:48 AM »
What's the payback time on digging the hole and constructing this, versus using a traditional AC and grid power?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 11:16:48 AM by asheets »

craig110

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Re: Earth tube AC
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2006, 11:54:24 AM »
I'd also really like to tap into the ground temperature someday, but instead of directly using buried air ducts I'll use liquid-filled tubes such as those used in ground-loop heat pumps.  Fluids are easy to pump long-distances and, since the tubes are sealed and exchange the heat via a heat exchanger, there are no issues of interesting forms of life growing in, or around, the ductwork carrying the air that I'll soon be breathing.


Craig

« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 11:54:24 AM by craig110 »

electrondady1

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Re: Earth tube AC
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2006, 03:55:21 PM »
maybe this is a crime or something but,

 i live in town and the water coming out of my tap is way cold .

 so if i plumb town water to a rad and put a fan on it i will get cold air and no diging required.i could put a valve on it to control the flow and a pan underneath to collect the condensate.

« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 03:55:21 PM by electrondady1 »

lohearth

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Re: Earth tube AC
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2006, 06:11:21 PM »


   I beleave one fellow said that he also drops down swimming pool tablets. UV light sounds like an exellent plan.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 06:11:21 PM by lohearth »

TAH

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Re: Earth tube AC
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2006, 06:42:03 PM »
I did this one summer. I put a coil of about 150 feet of coper pipe in the cold air return and ran the water through it. I sent the exit water out a hose to water the garden and lawn. It worked good except for all the condensation that ran out of the duct. If it was setup with a proper drain it wouldn;t have been a problem. Since then I have moved and have several hundred feet of pex buried and pump water through it.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 06:42:03 PM by TAH »

Volvo farmer

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Re: Earth tube AC
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2006, 08:09:24 PM »
Your'e kidding right?

Maybe 8 hours of backhoe @ $65/hr, probably less. Maybe $500 in materials, for a whole house system. You'd be ahead on the cost of a central AC from day one. Then you'd be using 1/10 the electricity for the lifetime of the unit, plus the fact that the local HVAC repairman would never ever visit your house to repair your AC.

This system might not be as effective or comfortable as central AC but in my estimation, it begins to pay back on day one if it works effectively enough.

« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 08:09:24 PM by Volvo farmer »
Less bark, more wag.

commanda

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Re: Earth tube AC
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2006, 09:14:13 PM »
You obviously don't get regular water bills, or have to live with water restrictions.


Amanda


Doing my bit for the Aussie environment and saving water; haven't washed the car in 2 years.

« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 09:14:13 PM by commanda »

jimjjnn

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Re: Earth tube AC
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2006, 09:28:07 PM »
Car wash? What is that?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 09:28:07 PM by jimjjnn »

scottsAI

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Re: Earth tube AC
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2006, 11:56:55 PM »
Hello Old F,


Yes, and interesting web site.


Helped a Michigan friend use an A/C A-frame and well water to cool his house.

The warmed water is used to water the lawn. The A/C will kick on while your in the back yard... got to move quick! Need to do something about that.


Got the damaged A-frame cheap.


Earth tube is doing much the same thing.


Cooled nicely, a wet cool. Need to run dehumidifier.

About third the cost of AC to run.

Today I would use desiccant, solar dried. I would like to think I would.


If you go with water loops, remember it's suffice area, need much more loop than the several inch dia pipe.. I would go with water loops, just seems less trouble. Then you could hook it into a heat pump to warm the place in the winter. Unless you have lots of solar heating!

I just realized if you start with air tubes, then decide to many problems, nothing stopping you from filling up with water and go that way!

Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 11:56:55 PM by scottsAI »

Old F

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Re: Earth tube AC
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2006, 03:28:20 AM »
Volvo Farmer


I will get by with less than that built a small back hoe a few years back.

So all I will have in it is my time and material.


Its 14 inch bucket is a bit big for trenching but bets the heck  out of pick an shovel  :  )

Check out my web site for pics.


Old F

« Last Edit: August 24, 2006, 03:28:20 AM by Old F »
Having so much fun it should be illegal

electrondady1

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Re: Earth tube AC
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2006, 07:32:12 AM »
 my house has just a two foot crawl space if the air duct exit has to be the lowest point it won't be practical for me

i think i would feel more comfortable with a closed loop water system rather than an air system. if the pump and fan could work on the same motor it would be slick.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2006, 07:32:12 AM by electrondady1 »

ruddycrazy

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Re: Earth tube AC
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2006, 02:59:22 AM »
I could be way off mark here but anyway say if you had a 15x5 metre slab of concrete say 5 inches thick on average on the southern side of the house(in Oz). The tubes could be placed under the slab and should provide the cooling properties of buried pipes. Am I way of the mark here or does the idea hold some merit. I like the idea suggested in the link but digging 3 foot deep trench's on my place would involve a decent rock breaker apart from that it would be hard work where under the slab in the shad sounds like an easier way to do it.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 02:59:22 AM by ruddycrazy »

asheets

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Re: Earth tube AC
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2006, 05:01:53 PM »
Hmmm...  I was under the impression that the hole had to go deep, like a well-hole.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 05:01:53 PM by asheets »

altosack

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Re: Earth tube AC
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2006, 07:46:09 PM »
Uh, yep, I think you're way off the mark.


The best thing to do (if you want to bury at a shallow depth) is to put vegetation or some other method to shade the earth so it doesn't get the insolation in the first place. Vegetation is great because it convects neaerly all the heat it absorbs into the air and keeps the ground cooler. Concrete would absorb all the heat and conduct and radiate some of it down, although most of it would still convect and radiate up.


Oh, I missed the comment about putting it on the south side of the house (north side for us north of the equator). This would help; make sure it is completely shaded. Vegetation is still better because it transpires, too (heat lost by evaporation). Oh, and it's better to look at, has less embodied energy than concrete, etc., etc.


Dave

« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 07:46:09 PM by altosack »

marvin

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Re: Earth tube AC
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2006, 06:21:43 PM »
Anyone else read further on that site about some of his other designs or ideas?

He goes on about a solar powered generator that operates 24hrs/day. Says he had a working model at 200W but wasn't allowed to build a larger one.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2006, 06:21:43 PM by marvin »

powerbuoy

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Re: Earth tube AC
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2006, 07:00:30 PM »
Why even digging trenches? Most of our basements are 8 feet under ground. Place the piping against the basement wall, place a plate (second wall) in front of it, add some filler material (maybe earth?) and start the airblow scheme ... no need to digg trenches
« Last Edit: September 11, 2006, 07:00:30 PM by powerbuoy »

libra

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Re: Earth tube AC
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2007, 02:38:22 PM »
When I had my house built I was close to an embankment. My weeping tile ran to the edge of the embankment and I ran another line of weeping tile from the edge on the hill, screened it over and ran it close to the wood stove.. There is always cool air inflow just enough to flutter a match.

I dond't usually a cooling problem in the summer as I have a bank of windows at the top of the house that keeps us cool.

If  global warming  beomes a problem I can always add a fan and pull in more cool air.

I haven't had any bad smells from this set up and any moisture goes into the ground through the pipe preforations.

Hope this helps


Libra

« Last Edit: April 26, 2007, 02:38:22 PM by libra »

garyonthenet

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Re: Earth tube AC
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2007, 07:48:31 PM »
Well I came into a little expendable cash, and I have been thinking of this idea for a couple years now. Finally I bought some earth drilling equipment, and am now in the process of planning some vertical earth tubes to cool my house.


My design plan is:



  1. About 100' vertical tube into the ground.
  2. Outer diameter of the tube about 8".
  3. I intend to drill at least 4 of these tubes, for a total of 400', driven in parallel.
  4. Gonna use water or antifreeze as the transfer fluid.
  5. The climate I am doing this in is in the Woodstock NY latitude, so I understand that the earth temperature is about 49degF.


Possibly gonna jack into my house's radiant heating system with this fluid and cool my house that way, instead of perhaps using a car radiator and a fan.


I have a couple innovative ideas on implementation of this already established idea, and since this well established technique has surprisingly little hard data associated with it, I will be keeping detailed records as to costs, and energy efficiencies and heat transfer capacities.

I plan on putting a data gathering flow meter on the individual tubes, and a temperature sensor on the ingoing water as well as the outcoming water from the tubes. This way I will be able to monitor cooling power capacities, and integrate the data across several months.


I have also read the Indian Paper on their experiment using air as the transfer fluid, and it is very encouraging. see: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Sunspace/EarthTube2004-03-02gsharan.pdf


However the differences are that they seemed to have run it only for a few days each month, and of course my tubes will reach much deeper. Also my tubes are 8" diameter, theirs were 4" diameter.

Someone here or there mentioned that a larger diameter pipe is better only to a point, and thereafter with diminishing returns.

The reason was because only a small part of that larger volume of water would, on the average, contact the large pipe surface area, due to laminar flow; if turbulent flow was induced then then pumping efficiency went down.

I have a method that will force a majority of the water to contact the inner pipe surface with mostly laminar flow and good pumping efficiency.

My method to drill the holes is also much cheaper than what usually is tallied for costs, for the effort, time and end tubular dimensions.


My quandary here for you all, is the cost of lining the tube with something 8" in diameter.

PVC Piping is out, as I can't even seem to come across it for sale in that diameter, and it looks like it would cost about $2.50 a foot. With a 400 foot run, that total will add up fast to unacceptable bucks.

One of the major target specification goals here is to have the full installation cost much less than a conventional after market (ventless) central air conditioning system.


Of the various piping materials solutions I have considered, concrete and polyethylene tubing seem to be usable solutions for this application.


For the concrete idea, the challenge I have is, how to make a 100' concrete lined tube, outer diameter 8" and inner diameter 6", lining thickness 1". The concrete liner should be water tight.

My plan is to use pool plaster, with a 6" inner tube as the inside form.

One of the main problems is the static pressure of a 100' column of concrete, which has a density of about 2.6g/ml. Such a pressure at the bottom of the tube would be immense tending to crush and/or push up boyantly [phonetic] any empty tube.

A propositional solution might be to fill the inner tube to 100', and fill the volume around it with concrete to a level of 1/(2.6) x 100feet= 38feet.

The two fluids at these levels would have equistatic pressures.

Then, when the concrete hardens some, I could pour the remaining 62 feet of concrete.

If I used a flexible (flattenable) tubing material, I could then evacuate it of water and remove it to leave the concreate cassion liner.

Tricky, I know. 100feet long, with a 1inch clearance between the outer and inner diameters. With the expectation that it be waterproof as well.

Hmmm. Any ideas on this are welcomed. I have a couple other related possible solutions, but I'd like to hear some input here too.

Once I have that tube in place, the rest of the project is relatively straightforward.


BTW, I have also read the earth tube "Free Airconditioning" website by CJ, see:

http://mb-soft.com/solar/saving.html


What he has written I have found to be very useful, and his enthusiasm is infectious. His sense of self importance is a little off-putting.

I tried communicating with him by email, but in short order, when he concluded that I had a rather different topology for my system, rather than using his, he was rather beligerent and denigrating to my project and me, telling me my project would cost many thousands of dollars, that I would have to hire skycraper building engineers for $400/hour, and saying that I was trying to abuse his good will by leaching free engineering services from him.

I sent him a final email stating that he did not have to communicate with me, and that we can all learn from each other in these efforts, but I did not talk to him if he didn't want to, and left it on a positive note.

Well, along with all that positive passion, often comes a bit of paranoia ;-))


RSVP all here.


Gary

« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 07:48:31 PM by garyonthenet »