Author Topic: Trombe wall  (Read 7864 times)

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windrules

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Trombe wall
« on: March 27, 2005, 02:57:16 AM »
Hi everyone,

My house has very little thermal mass and I was thinking of building a trombe wall to add mass and warmth.I am not sure of what glass to use and should it be double glazed.I live in southern Australia and the temperatures are not too extreme.The area of my wall is about 2.6 meters by  1.9 meters high,Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

Kind regards,

Mos
« Last Edit: March 27, 2005, 02:57:16 AM by (unknown) »

harrie

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Re: Tombe wall
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2005, 08:42:48 PM »
Hi.  I only wish I had the problem of living in southern Australia rather than in cold Northern Minnesota USA. Anyway, I have what I call a passive solar Room on the south side of my home. What I did was first dig a hole the size of the room I wanted to build, to a depth of 4 Feet. I than put in concrete footings, and layed blocks for the foundation. I than filled the entire area with rock of different sizes. For the floor, I set Black rocks in Black dyed concrete. The south wall of the room was set at 60 degrees and was constructed of almost all glass. The therory of all this, is the sun penetrating thru the Glass, unto the Black absorbing rock floor, will heat the mass of rock under the floor, and store it until it night, and would release that heat during the night hours. IT seems to work Ok, but I would expect that it would work alot better where you live.  Good Luck Harrie
« Last Edit: March 26, 2005, 08:42:48 PM by harrie »

johnlm

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Re: Tombe wall
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2005, 08:46:24 PM »
From the reading Ive done on  Trombe walls, if you use single glazing, at night you will loose about 75% of the heat that was gained during the day.  With double glazing the loss would only be about 35 to 40 %.  In colder climates (nightime temps during the winter getting below 20 deg F consistantly) some kind of nighttime insulating between the wall and the glass is very helpful.

If made of concrete the optimum wall thickness should be around 10 inches.

John
« Last Edit: March 26, 2005, 08:46:24 PM by johnlm »

alcul8r

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Re: Trombe wall
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2005, 10:54:01 PM »
I'd rather just build the thermal mass into the house.  If I'm going to have windows I'd like to see out, and the wall is just thermal mass, in spite of the hype.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2005, 10:54:01 PM by alcul8r »

Psycogeek

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Re: Trombe wall
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2005, 11:01:43 PM »
the doubble pane glass here in this house is AMAZING.

another house i was in, i replaced, a single pain with an argon filled double pane, and the SOUND of the freeway out front (aka soccer mom high speed residental:-) went away totally.


here in the winter, these double panes are a life savior, let the sun in, and the glass doesnt cool things right back down again.

in the summer, with the White and reflective shading kepping the light out, the heat doesnt pass through into the house as much.


other than the (eventual) problem of them losing thier gasses, or getting something in them (water) i think they are worth every penny, even if a person had to rip thier old ones out.


for thermal and sound insulation that you can still see through, and get light heat from, they are great.

« Last Edit: March 26, 2005, 11:01:43 PM by Psycogeek »

wpowokal

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Re: Trombe wall
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2005, 12:57:52 AM »
Mos for my money its double glazing or heavy curtains/covering for night, taking into account the size of the air gap its double glazing.


This link has a comment re summer sun/shading which is a very important concideration.


http://www.seav.vic.gov.au/ftp/buildings/VSII/trombe_walls.pdfderation.

Allan

« Last Edit: March 27, 2005, 12:57:52 AM by wpowokal »
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tesla man

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Re: Trombe wall alternative
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2005, 06:01:59 AM »
 I would suggest, perhaps, another route.. just for the sake of discussion..


  1. water stores heat extremely well
  2. a large, circular water tank, is easy to insulate ( use alternating layers of mylar reflective film, and thin closed cell foam, such as that sold in rolls for above ground swimming pools)
  3. a system, based on 1) and 2) above, and a THERMAL solar hot water heater ( easily constructed) would have the best of both worlds, a large thermal mass, with low losses, and easy to build, etc ( in my opinion, you would get by far, more bang, per buck spent)


if the water storage tanks is located ABOVE the solar panels ( heat generation) one would Not even need a water pump, during daylight hours! it will thermo-siphon automatically!


to heat, any other time, a very slow, low power water pump, can pump the water through foam insulated pipes, into a water radiator in a room, or preferably, a floor hydronic heating system..


you would get incredible thermal mass, low losses, and easy to distribute heat, all at a very low cost


even a few hundred feet of common garden hose, will transfer an enormous amount of heat into water, in full sunlight, one can build a small low cost system, out of available parts ( garden hose absorber ( true- not that long life compared to a black copper pipe..) and a old water heater tank (with burned out heating elements) etc..


very efficient, low cost.. and very high performance... the perfect match!


tesla man

« Last Edit: March 27, 2005, 06:01:59 AM by tesla man »

nanotech

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Re: Tombe wall
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2005, 08:11:07 AM »
Heh, where abouts in Minnesota do you live Harrie?


I'm in the Thief River Falls area!!


Small world :D


Darrin

« Last Edit: March 27, 2005, 08:11:07 AM by nanotech »

windrules

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Re: Trombe wall
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2005, 12:34:09 PM »
Thanks for all of your imput.This will be a refit to an existing house and to keep my wife happy has to look at least reasonably good,especialy inside.I like the water idea but can't see how I can fit it in.The wall I want to use is currently brick veneer so I think I will Use mortar and rocks to make it solid and also make a feature wall,then by the looks double glaze the outside.

Thanks,

Mos
« Last Edit: March 27, 2005, 12:34:09 PM by windrules »

nothing to lose

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Re: Trombe wall
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2005, 04:42:56 AM »
Perhaps bury the water tank/s in with your rocks under the concrete. I would think the water will still heat as well as all those rocks you were ging to put there for the same purpose. Then you can still move the water, unlike rocks. Or just let it sit there like a rock. Your option. Bring pipes out to a convenient location for future use even if you don't plan to use them now. Later you could tie into them at anytime if you want.


Although maybe not quite as good as other things, I have seen a system used to heat water, the house, then store the left over heat in the under ground tank. Hot water rises, cooler water settles, and it worked. He tapped the tanks at the lowest point (alittle above actually to aviod any sedimant), takes the coolest water and runs it through pipes in the sun to heat (at the windows), it rises and flows over head to the house, through the wall and a convection heater, as it cools it runs back out to the top of the under ground tank.


As long as the sun is hot and heating the outer pipes the water rises hotter, then as it cools on the other side away from the sun it runs back into the tank. This system then works in reverse at night. Hotter water in the top of the tank rises up through the pipes at the house, cools and runs down the pipes on the outer side and back into the bottom of the tank. The room is always warm if the sun has been shining durring the day, and that keeps the outer house wall warm at night


Because the tank is tapped at top and bottom, it will flow heat in either direction. One thing you need to be careful of is that the house is not warmer than the water and you end up sucking the heat out of the house. I think he had some type of simple thermastat setup to shut off a valve in the system when the house was warmer than the incoming water.


If you are just heating that room (like you would be with rocks only) you could just let it freeflow and not worry about it. You will always have a warm room with only the same losses as with rocks and concrete. And you still have the option of piping it elswhere if wanted. Pretty sure you would capture more heat durring the sunny days for storage anyway.


 Run the lines from the bottom of the tanks up the sunny area near the window, across the ceiling, down near the inner wall back to the top of the tank. The water should heat well in the sun, cool in the rest of the room while heating it also.


 To keep the wife happy, use a nice solid strong pipes and put some plant hangers on them, just don't shade the front of them with leaves and flowers.

« Last Edit: March 28, 2005, 04:42:56 AM by nothing to lose »

harrie

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Re: Tombe wall
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2005, 01:39:02 PM »
Hi Nanoteck. I live about 15 miles south of Deer River MN. Harrie
« Last Edit: March 28, 2005, 01:39:02 PM by harrie »

Tippy

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Re: Trombe wall
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2005, 09:16:58 AM »
As someone else posted below water is your best thermal massing unit.  It is also very easy to move the heated or cooled water from one point to where it is needed in the structure.  It can be a closed loop system, heating and cooling via natural convection in the summer and the system is half full in the winter, heating the water on the roof in the day, and then poening a valve at night letting the water flow in to the interiror cistern and releasing the heat.  I have a degree in architecture, and am currently working on a project in central mexico which uses this system as well as a traditional thermal wall with solar fins constructed of compacted adobe block.  if you would like some more info on these systems let me know. ryanwotipka@yahoo.com
« Last Edit: April 01, 2005, 09:16:58 AM by Tippy »

GaryGary

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Re: Trombe wall
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2005, 03:04:07 PM »
Hi,

You might want to take a look here:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/ShurcliffPart1/TOC.htm

These are excerpts from a book by Dr. Shurcliff (with his permission) that address Trombe wall good and bad features, and proposes several schemes to improvement the performance of the Trombe wall.  He is a very clear thinker, and easy to read.


One thing that may not be a major factor for you, but is for a lot of people is that Trombe walls are slow to deliver heat in the morning.  The sun has to be shinning on them for some time before the heat works its way through to the inside.  For a lot of people, morining is when they want the heat the most.  Some designs have vents in the wall to help that problem.  


I'm probably prejudiced on this, but I think I'd consider the approach of adding windows, adding thermal mass to the house near the windows, and (if needed) adding exterior shading over the windows for summer overheat control.  This way you get the light and views as a bonus.  If you can include a method to prevent the large night heat losses that windows exhibit when you do the design, there is really not much of anything that will beat the efficiency of this arrangement.


Gary

« Last Edit: August 26, 2005, 03:04:07 PM by GaryGary »

hunterm

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Re: Trombe wall
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2005, 06:02:22 PM »
We are in South Australia, retrofitting a country house with 30cm thick solid masonry walls and almost no north (ie sun) facing windows. We are doing 2 things that might interest you:


  1. Putting a trombe wall/ solar heat collector on part of the north wall (we can insert a set of french doors to replace the only window on the north wall, but it still leaves us with a lot of wall). We are using a recycled aluminium window with a fixed lower pane and sliding panes each side of a central upper pane. The window unit will be sealed to the dark-painted wall (ie the trombe wall), with the sliding panes openable from the outside to assist summer cooling. There will be a top and bottom opening through the wall on one side of the window (probably plumbers pipe so that we can put insulated screw caps to close off the openings). The aluminium bar between the upper and lower window panes will be sealed to the wall from the side with the openings almost to the other side, to ensure that air passes right across the warmed area. This operates as both a trombe wall and a solar heat collector, and the latter may be the most effective.
  2. We have to move a wall inside the house to make the living area on the north side - at present the living room is on the south side and totally internal, as the southern verandah was enclosed. To rebuild the wall in the new position without sacrificing thermal mass, we are building a "water wall" tank into the new wall. It's also 30cm thick, 2 metres long and 2 metres high, and it needs good foundations as it holds 1250 litres and weights 1.25 tonnes. The water in the water wall will be a closed loop system which travels externally to a solar water heat collector (probably pool heating pipes, possibly a water heater grade of heater) with a small circulating pump. This will be used to heat the water in the water wall during sunny winter days, and to diffuse heat from water on summer nights. We reckon this will have more going for it than the trombe wall. As already stated, water is good cheap thermal mass and it's movable to gain and lose heat.


We have limited expectations  - we want to extend the time that the house is comfortable without heating and cooling, and provide better background heating when we do need to use our wood heater. We are also building water pipes when we raise the floor in the area of the verandah which we are incorporating into the house. This and the water wall builds in the infrastructure for heat delivery systems, and then we have options to play with for years about how to generate the heat. Feedback appreciated, as we haven't started yet, though we are amassing recycled bits and pieces.

« Last Edit: September 14, 2005, 06:02:22 PM by hunterm »

BCborn

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Re: Trombe wall - eucletic salt
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2005, 07:23:09 PM »
You may also want to consider building the Trombe wall utlizing eucletic salts. Salts that change phase, with heat input, become molten, then release the heat as they crystallize. This technology can even be combined with steam generators to provide electrical power, as seen in:


http://arizonaenergy.org/images/powertower.pdf


In this case, however, you would have tubular columns storing the salts, as your wall.

« Last Edit: November 04, 2005, 07:23:09 PM by BCborn »

thirteen

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Re: Trombe wall
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2006, 09:50:23 PM »
I helped build a heat system for a person in Montana that used a room beside his house that was of concrete and sealed except to the pipes and acess walkway leading in and out of the room.  It had large rocks 12 in to 24 inches and some smaller rock put around vented pipe that was laced thru the rocks the heated air from his window room was pumped thru the rock to heat them, then recirculated air at night to maitain air temp in the house and his indoor garden.  He had curtains that folded out and covered the windows.  the circulation fan was battery operated during the night but charged and run by solar panels during the day.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2006, 09:50:23 PM by thirteen »
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