Author Topic: hydro power generated from jet pump  (Read 5899 times)

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twocreeks

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hydro power generated from jet pump
« on: November 14, 2005, 07:43:58 PM »
 I have a large (Ave Ann. flow appox. 1,800 cubic feet per Min.) year round creek on my property with appoximately 25 feet of head.

 I have a couple of old jet pumps which I was hoping could be altered (if necessary )to generate my own hydro electricity. Anybody have any knowledge and/or experience with this situation? I know that a centrifugal pump can be used. What kind of power could I expect?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2005, 07:43:58 PM by (unknown) »

Nando

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Re: hydro power generated from jet pump
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2005, 04:52:45 PM »
What is your Name ?.


What-is-your-name:


You may as well forget the idea of OLD JET PUMPS, head too low and those pumps are difficult to use in your environment.



  1. GPM= 113.4 liter/sec
  2. feet = 7.6 meter head


Power available : 113 * 7.6 * 9,81 = 8.4 KW


Then What-is-your-name needs to define the efficiency of the Turbine, the Generator and transmission loses to find the final available power

8.4 KW *0.6= 5 KW


Turbine for this head = Banki or a propeller.


So What-is-your-name needs to "do some other ideas" and spend some additional money for the Turbines


Nando

« Last Edit: November 14, 2005, 04:52:45 PM by Nando »

wdyasq

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Try it
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2005, 05:19:26 PM »
Twocreeks,


I don't remember anyone tring this.  It may be a good choice for a cheap turbine.  You do have the parts.


If you could find an inexpensive way to hook the thing up I would have a go at it.  I do think there are better and proven ways to produce power but, what the hell, you may as well try it and then all of us can either reap the rewards or know to stay away from such projects.


Ron

« Last Edit: November 14, 2005, 05:19:26 PM by wdyasq »
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Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: hydro power generated from jet pump
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2005, 09:01:20 PM »
I agree with Nando on this.  A jet pump impellor would want a lower flow and higher head.


Working as a pump the impeller would be working against a head of approximately your tank pressure and at a flow rate of about 3-4 times the flow rate of the delivered water.  Guessing 30 PSI and 10 GPM at the outlet it would be equivalent to maybe 60 feet of head and impelling a flow of no more than 40 GPM.  Running as a turbine it would want similar numbers.  So you'd be running it at an inefficiently low pressure and only be able to run a few percent of your available flow through it.  (Pelton wheels also like lots of head.)


A homebrew Banki turbine should be something like 80% efficient, work just dandy at a 25 foot head, have considerable internal clearance (so you only need to strain out the larger branches and big fish), be trivial to weld up out of sheet metal, and (if I recall correctly) be much smaller than a diesel engine of the same horsepower.  And you can run it at a slight negative outlet pressure by submerging your tailstock, so you can get the advantage of the entire head while keeping your genny safely above the local water level.


I know that's what I'd use in your situation.

« Last Edit: November 14, 2005, 09:01:20 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

BigBreaker

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Re: hydro power generated from jet pump
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2005, 07:15:04 AM »
Practically speaking you will spend a LOT more money on your water pipes, creak interface, wires and sundry electronics than on the turbine.  You might as well buy a nice one off the shelf and avoid creating a "weakest link" in your RE setup.  A good turbine may allow you to forego batteries, run higher voltage wires and use cheaper, lower efficiency appliances.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2005, 07:15:04 AM by BigBreaker »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Try it
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2005, 12:32:09 PM »
Even if it doesn't work (or works but doesn't bring in much power) in twocreeks' situation it might do just dandy for a small mill in a site with a higher head.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2005, 12:32:09 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Try it
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2005, 12:39:30 PM »
HA!  Has high flow low head.  Needs low flow high head.  He needs a water transformer.


If it works but doesn't give much power, try using a hydraulic ram to produce a low-flow high-head supply from the high-flow low-head supply.  B-)  It's a gawdawful kludge but you can make a good ram for cheap from a few plumbing components.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2005, 12:39:30 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

twocreeks

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Re: hydro power generated from jet pump
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2005, 04:55:11 PM »
  Thanks for your comments. I've always thought a cross-flow turbine would best suite my location. I even have blue prints to make one, however I'm not a welder and I'm really short of cash. So that's why I'm considering using a jet pump (of which I have several). You mentioned using sheet metal; I've only seen plans using 4" iron pipe. The other hurdle is all the rules and regs. It's daunting.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 04:55:11 PM by twocreeks »

maker of toys

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Re: Try it
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2005, 04:59:16 PM »
". . . . needs a water transformer."  


I like to fell out of my chair.  Thanks, I needed that!

(still chuckling)


-Dan

« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 04:59:16 PM by maker of toys »

ghurd

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Re: Try it
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2005, 05:17:23 PM »
Most retail stores keep them next to the muffler bearings and tail light fluid.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 05:17:23 PM by ghurd »
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nothing to lose

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Re: Try it
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2005, 08:37:45 PM »
"Most retail stores keep them next to the muffler bearings and tail light fluid."


Is that close to the "Class F" fire extingishers to put out water fires?

« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 08:37:45 PM by nothing to lose »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Try it
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2005, 11:32:04 AM »
Not a joke.  That's essentially what a hydraulic ram IS.


Actually, it's EXACTLY analogous to a switching upconverter.


 - Ram pipe = inductor.

 - Clack valve = switching transistor.

 - Clack valve spring/weight and water forces on valve = drive circuitry.

 - Output check valve = output diode.

 - Pressure tank = output capacitor.

« Last Edit: November 17, 2005, 11:32:04 AM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

maker of toys

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Re: Try it
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2005, 06:26:32 PM »
I wasn't laughing at the 'joke'


i was laughing because it's such an apt metaphor.  I like your 'switching upconverter' analogy, too. . . probably closer to the reality than the 'transformer' concept.  and the rube-goldberg monstrosity that formed in my mind's eye was my undoing.


Using a ram to power a high-head, low flow turbine from a run-of-river type site is the kind of un-functionally-fixed thinking I like.


(point of trivia:  in late 1906 or 1907, a young engineer, one Rube Goldberg, PE, was hired to design a municipal water distribution system with high redundancy, damage tolerance and reliability.  major parts of it are still in use and are capable of flipping a car that's unlucky enough to clobber a hydrant.


the city?  San Francisco.  The reasons behind the specs. will be obvious. . . .)


-Dan

« Last Edit: November 17, 2005, 06:26:32 PM by maker of toys »

Tropical hydro

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Re: Try it
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2005, 01:15:17 AM »
113ltres/sec with 7.6meters of head! Are you looking to power the neighbourhood?

I am looking at using an overshot wheel with a different type of generator to reduce the losses in the gearing up required to run a gennerator. Will let you know if I find someone with the right creek crazy enough to let me try it. When you say "jet pump" What is this? I have access to the jet unit of a jet ski and your post has got me thinking. The impellor on these things is pretty effecient at picking up lots of water and throwing it really fast. I wonder if it could be adapted?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2005, 01:15:17 AM by Tropical hydro »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Try it
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2005, 02:53:40 PM »
When you say "jet pump" What is this?


A "jet pump" is a system for pumping water from a moderately deep well - say something over 30 feet deep - without having any submerged moving parts.  (After about 30 feet you can put a perfect vacuum on your "straw" and not suck up any water - the atmospheric pressure isn't enough to support a water column that high.)


A jet pump system has a pump and pressure tank on the surface and the pump works across the pressure difference of the tank versus that at the top of the well.  But maybe 3/4 to 4/5 of the water isn't delivered to the tank, but goes back down the well.  Below the water level it turns around and then goes out a jet at the throat of a venturi.  This sucks in some well water to combine with the jet and go back up the other part of the pipe.


A venturi is another sort of "water transformer", but the opposite of a ram.  It trades off some pressure difference for increased flow.


The deeper the well, the higher the fraction of the water has to be recirculated into a jet to lift the water you're actually pumping.  And the less efficient the system.  Get deep enough and it makes more sense to sink a waterproof motor/impeller combo.


The point, though, is that an old jet-pump pumphouse unit would have a motor/turbine combo designed for a pressure difference equivalent to something like 100 feet of head and a flow of several times that you'd deliver from the well, combined with a pressure tank good for something like that pressure range.


If you've got that kind of high-head low-flow supply you just swap an alternator for the motor and get something that might not be as efficient as a purpose-built water turbine but shouldn't be too much worse.  But if you've got a lower-head higher-flow situation you might make a ram out of some pipes, a couple check valves, and the pressure tank, converting it to the high-head low-flow case.


It will be interesting to hear how well this works (if at all).  B-)

« Last Edit: November 28, 2005, 02:53:40 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

strider3700

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Re: hydro power generated from jet pump
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2006, 03:34:49 PM »
I've got 6.7 gallons/minute and 115 feet(50 psi) of head running into my water system I've also got a 1 hp hottub circulation pump sitting on the floor back there.   Anyone have a guess on if this will work?  If I build a tiny banki or a pelton wheel then I should get about 70 watts of power but if I can get close using this pump then I'll just plumb it together and call it a day.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2006, 03:34:49 PM by strider3700 »