power dams

[thirteen]

Just thought of a idea I would like some information as to where I could go to find a flexable dam or flexable tank that could be removed when I am not there.  The creek is small during the summer months.  I have a naturel dam that I will use for my water supply to my hydro system but during the late summer months it will drop below the supply line. I have thought of cement but it would be made by hand and I am trying to leave the creek as naturel as possible. I need to raise the water 4 in.  To many trees on one side of the creek and solid rock on the other.  

[Nando]

Where are You located ?

A photo of the creek where the DAM is located will help 1000's times than your description.

Since You want to raise 4 inches ( which I think is in error) then make it with concrete when the water is low, make the dam looking like stones, BUT raise it at least 12 inches, REASON debris should be away from the intake "vaccum" effects.

NaturAl looking may be the best, but do it close to it and attain the benefit You are looking for.

Also, look for other sites, either somewhat down or up to attain the best results,

Site should be preferable UP the creek.

Nando

[thirteen]

Lower part of the Idaho Panhandle Grangeville, ID is the nearest city. West 54 miles Elevation 3850ft 4wh drive country

no picture available

I could put rocks on the top of the concret before it hardens.  I might be able to use a 20 ft plastic pipe to bypass the creek until the concret hardens.  I think I will invest in a cement mixer. I have to much foundation work to do.  The dam alone will take an estimated 2 yards. I will have to make it heavy enough to withstand the large volume of flow during the spring runoff. 2- 3 feet deep and 4-5 ft wide. I have a four foot culvert that runs full for about three weeks. Washed out three years ago and lost a 15 pass van down the creek.

I was thinking of haveing debis flow easier over the 4 inchs this also would cover the inlet pipe. It has a naturel deepth of 10 inches  by 4x6 ft area behind the two large rocks that form a v for an outlet.  But 12 inch probably be better I have 1/4 inch heavy shaker screen I can use to protect the inlet and cover it completly.

this is where my two springs come together and I need all the water I can get for my fall of 24 ft. and low valume is at the limet unless I go over three hundred feet farther down the creek for another 12 feet of drop. I will have 100 feet to the house at this time.  

Just thinking of the possiblities thanks

[Nando]

Since You may have flood conditions, then the dam can not be made flat vertical, it has to be sloped up the stream, at about 45 degrees (lower better) to insure that the fast water "slides" and do not present a heavy pressure to the dam.

Then You are going to place a WEIR to the side that has a lower setting to allow the water to go out faster, and if possible do place heavy rocks directing the water toward the WEIR, the bottom cut of the WEIR should be at least 10 to 12 inches above the pipe intake.

The debris filter holes should be at least 1/3 size of the Nozzle area if you are using Turgo or Pelton.

Also the debris "shield" needs to be at least 2 pipe diameter away from the intake pipe, with the "holes" area not less than 10 times the pipe diameter times the cubic root of the pipe water velocity to minimize the "clogging" of the screen filter holes, so You need to see that screen should be large for best hydro operation.

Power GO for the extra length, you get 50 % more power by just going farther with the pipe run.

Go for a high voltage generator, like 120 or 220 volts for easy power transmission then use transformers to bring the voltage to the battery bank needs, also if done properly the Vac can be used directly in the house

Seal the large rocks lower area with concrete, MOST of the people that I helped in USA and CANADA do not listen the suggestions for the DAM and always end up complaining about the dam or going to do a reconstruction of the dam to get best results.

The most important part of a hydro is the INTAKE section, do pay good time optimizing it, to obtain best water harvesting to produce maximum power.

What type of Turbine are You planning to use ?.

For 36 feet head = 10.9 meter head with 3.78 liter/sec = 1 gallon/sec = 60 GPM,You can obtain 248 watts, or 5.95 KWH/day

That is 50 % higher if going 24 feet head

Nando

[Countryboy]

Please tell me you are joking.  You can't be serious about asking how to build a 4 INCH dam that can be raised or lowered - when you have 24-36 feet of head.  An additional 4 inches of head is only around a 1% increase in potential power - and there are far easier ways to obtain a 1% benefit.

Build a weir gate dam.  Place a board in front of the opening to raise water level 4 inches.  A board can easily be installed or removed as a gate.

Install a culvert with a barrier 4 inches higher than water level.  Place an inner tube between the barrier and the bottom of the culvert.  Pump the inner tube full of air when you want to raise the water level.  Deflate and remove inner tube when you want to lower the water level.

A local pond owner has a PVC pipe as an overflow for his pond.  The side of the PVC pipe in the pond has an elbow on it, and the opening points upwards.  He can place varying lengths of pipe into the elbow to adjust water levels.

Old tires filled with dirt could be used to build a 4 inch dam.

You can easily make a 4 inch dam in a creek 4-5 feet wide with a SHOVEL and a little gravel.  If it washes out during a storm, you go back out with your shovel again for a few minutes.

Go buy 300 more feet of penstock, and 300 more feet of wire.  You will gain 50% more power for a slight increase in cost.  That shouldn't even be an issue that would take more than 1/2 second to think about.

I hate to sound pessimistic, but if you don't have the common sense to be able to figure out how to come up with a 4 inch dam, then you don't have any business trying to make your own power.  You're a serious accident waiting to happen.

It sounds like you have a good site, with good potential.  However, if you insist on a hydro site, make sure you have someone help you (ie, do it for you) who has some common sense and knows what they are doing.

[thirteen]

A picture would have saved some questions. As for the 4 inchs it would have just been there to keep the pipe covered so it would not glup air during the late summer months when being used. Not as an increase for power. As for the tire idea its good but I am working with rocks that are 2-3 foot in diameter and larger ones where I have a naturel dam. The fall over the large rocks is about 3 ft. The sides of the banks are a steep 10 feet 45degrees down to the creek. The two big rocks make a naturel dam with with a pool behind them coming together in a v for an outlet in the middle and one about three feet to the left side aginest another larg rock.   The water during the spring would send the tires unless anchered to the trees down the creek. Just to much volume. A picture is worth a thousand words all I have is words at this time.  

As for the thoughts of a 4 inch raisable dam I was sitting here and just wrote what I was thinking of trying to do. A pipe about ten foot long with an old coveryor belt cut to fit the rocks with some extending under the water could be made to fit tightly enough to control the outlets of the rocks and have an over flow and be easily put back in place if washed out. A weir dam may be the best idea to use.

Just so you know I am about 350 miles from the property and will be going up there in about 2.5 years permanutly. I am in Butte, Mt. right now I have kids still in school and one with special treatments he will be gone in less than two years. So I am a city boy for a couple more years. I just cannot walk out and do things easily.  

As for the extending the penstock I will have to rent a backhoe (est $2300) to dig across the access road and down to the new site. Everything will need to be under ground 3 to 4 feet. 4 inch pipe, most the ground is sharp rocks hard digging so everything must be protected before being buried. It is hard digging it took me 14+ hrs last time to dig 130 ft of ditch and then install the pipe. The closest road is about 3.5 miles away that backhoe could be takened to. Then roaded in and out.

I'll get it figured out and go from there thank for your imput, Good ideas thanks.

[Countryboy]

I have a much simpler solution for the small dam.

Tell your kids they can turn that into their swimming hole if they dam it up.  They'll probably make it deeper than 4 more inches, but you should have plenty of water to cover the inlet pipe.

After all, a small dam is child's play.

[thirteen]

I tried to make one gave up I don't have the tools needed to do it right  so am going tp  buy a Turgo. I will have to install all of the pipeing first then figure out what I have to work with.

using a 4 inch supply pipe

I will at this time put a wier in place, large rocks I have plent of I will use them to help direct water flow

Question? what type  wire should I look for that could be used, the wire will be put underground back to the batteries.  Sounds like I will need to go with a 120 or 220 v gen.

Sounds like the increase in piping will be worth the exspence It is really hard digging where I am. Last time I had to dig wider ditchs because of the large rocks I had to move to one side. Just to big to pick up. 14 hrs for 150 feet 3 - 4 ft deep. I'll pay for some extra teeth for the backhoe bucket before I start this time.

I have the 4 inch pipe about 6 ft from the naturel rock dam capped off. I will be able to change the angle to what ever is needed. Origenally I was going to use a two inch plastic pipe for supply. Everyone said go to a 4.

Should I get one separate transformers for each bank (2) then switch to each transformer. Sounds right to me.

Maybe I'll try and make a diagraham and post it.  

Thanks for info Roy

[thirteen]

oddly enough they built one 4 years ago in front of the house, the creek runs 20 feet from the house and it has withstood water over it every spring it is about 2 ft deep.  They have a blast playing in it and the grand kids love it.  As a side chuckle ?? I have 13 fathered children, oldest 38 youngest 14, 6 adopted children, 4 grand children, and 3 ex's. The last one after 20 yrs, left me with 7 kids at home three were her sisters kids.  

[Nando]

Roy:

I see that the place will be your "retirement" for many years.

If You have to rent a backhoe, do what somebody did,IF YOU CAN, buy a used & working, not too expensive backhoe, then sell it again, he end up paying 1200 dollars for the whole job that if he had rented he had to pay close to 5500 dollars ( by the time he finished using it), though He used it to do additional things in his land.

Do not say maybe, make sure what you are doing on SOLID basis to insure good results.

DO NOT use 2 INCH, You will restrict the available power and indeed is a lot of additional power.

Using a Turgo, visit www.h-hydro.com and connect to joe@h-hydro.com to get good info for the type of Turgo he recommends, then let me know.

The RPM depends on the generator and for your site a 1 HP brushless DC motor ( last size 3/4 HP )

GE ECM Motors appear periodically in Ebay, though most of the time those are used 1/2 HP that borderline for Your system.

You said:

>Should I get one separate transformers for each bank (2) then switch to each transformer

Are You having two battery banks ?. Or what.

Use transformers ( 3 ) for the three phases to convert to your battery bank voltage and depending on the arrangement just a simple charger is needed ( like a C40).

Keep my address ( properly corrected for anti-spam) and let me know your progress and needs.

My email address is going to change to @tx.rr.com with the same USERNAME nando37.

Nando

[Countryboy]

A side chuckle?  You're out of your mind.  That's not funny - that's something which should be shameful and humiliating, and no self respecting person would admit.  The only way I could see anyone getting a chuckle over this, is if they were chuckling over their ability to get Public Welfare to pay the costs of raising their children.

That is nothing less than a desperate attempt at pity.  Unfortunately, I'm fresh out of pity - especially for someone in this scenario.  You not only didn't have enough common sense to recognize that you were a poor judge of womanly character the first time, you progressively exercised even worse judgement.

At least you recognized the ability of children to solve the problems you are currently having with your dam.  My recommendation would be to allow the children to build it - I think their mental capacity is better suited for it.

All that you are doing is reinforcing my earlier point of a complete lack of common sense.

[RP]

Countryboy,

It's time to lay off the coffee.  I haven't seen anything in this thread that deserved that response.

RP

[Countryboy]

Hi RP,

  Perhaps you missed it, but Thirteen was asking how to construct a dam that small children commonly build, without any assistance.

  I'm not sure which is worse.  A self proclaimed grandfather who lacks the common sense children have, or the fact that you don't see anything wrong with that.

I don't drink coffee either.

[coldspot]

Now this is getting pretty bad,

I have two X's, 4 children, (two from each), I've gotten a total of in "free help", $0.00 !!!!!!!

Been paying child support for MY kids since 1986.

I'm a grandpa and PROUD of it!!

MY Bloodline goes ON!!!!!!!

If somebody blasted me about a question I asked online because I enjoy comunication and am smart enough to know that otherpeoples thoughts could be good idea's, I'd still be getting off the floor from  laughing at them!

$0.02

[Vtbsr]

I had a thought on your idea that everything has to be 3 to 4 feet under ground. The running water in the pipe will not freeze. You need a valve to keep the water moving if you shut down the turbine flow. Put a air vent near the top of the penstock, after the intake shut off. If you shut off the top, the pipe could crush from the vaccume. I would  put the pipe just under ground to protect it and get it out of sight. If you run your power line in conduit this also could be just underground also. I do like the idea of a undergound turbine house. One more thing to plan for is that the stream bed will cut down over a 10 year period depending on your soil.Keep the exit pipe from the turbine house lower than you might think. The spring run off is when the max erosion happens.

[thirteen]

My dad is gone but I know what he is going to do. He will extend the line a couple of hundred feet. The waterline and power line will be in the same ditch. It will go down the road about 150ft. So it needs to be underground for protection from travel and frost.  He said it would be easier just to make it all the same deepth for the water flowing less bends and curveing of the piping.

good idea about lower ing outlet pipe and the vent I did not think of.  We will have a valve at the dam and one in the power house. Since sand is to exspnsive we have extremely sharp rock will wrap the pipe in exterior carpet. Then bury it. the carpet is free we got it from a carpet store that had roof damage we cleaned it up for the insurance company and only charged them $435 for removal of the damaged carpet rolls(7). We kept the carpet just for the piping. It should protect the pipe for years.  Cost is about $50 worth of gas. Thanks Steven and Dad