Help with hydro pumping

[livingwater]

There is an orphanage in Haiti that my church has helped with for 15 years. They have a spring that they have capped and piped with a 4" out flow. It runs continually and has some of the purest water in the country. Problem is, first they need to pump it up about 300 feet to the crest of the hill so it can flow down to lower elevations on the other side. The flow rate is nearly 125 gpm and constant. Second, there is no electricity. We are thinking that the water force could drive a wheel that could generate enough electricity to power a pump. Also, wind and solar are possiblities. While I have some engineering skills, electricity is not my strong suit. It is estimated this water could supply nearly 36,000 people. As you may know, 1/2 of Haiti's children die before age five, usually from waterborne illness. When the spring was capped and piped some years ago an immediate improvement was noticed in the health of the region.

Finally, it is my goal to bottle the water for translocation to difficult to reach areas as well as markets to fund the school and the bottling effort. Any ideas on this would be appreciated as well.

What I am asking is for some plans, specs or volunteers to help build an apparatus to power the pumps.

Thanks

[Nando]

My address is in the heading of my message connect with me, it would a pleasure to assist you, I have experience with hydro for many decades.

If you have 300 feet = 91 meters and all 125 gpm = 8 l/sec you may NEED 4.3 Kw of energy to pump all the water up hill, and if the other side has greater drop, like 400 feet then there is the possibility of placing a hydro turbine to produce the energy to pump the water up hill.

Though there are other alternatives for partial energy generation to do some of the water pumping.

8 l/s * 3600 sec/hour * 24 hours = 691,200 liters a day, for 36000 people it would mean 19 liter/person/day -- drinking and food water only -- no water for bath and other necessities.

In USA 300 (1130 liters)gallon/day/person I believe that includes waterinng plants as well.

Maybe around 50 liter/person/day for about 14,000 people

Regards

Nando

[dinges]

Nando,

Is this real, 300 Gal. (1130 L) per person/day ?

The numbers as I know them (for NL) are about 150-175 L per person/day. And I thought this was already a lot... Since we (USA & NL) both seem to have a western lifestyle, I find this difference very big. With or without plants (we have those in NL as well )

It seems like a very big difference. I knew we in Europe/NL were a bit more conscious about energy/water useage than perhaps the average American, but still, this is a very big difference.

Peter.

[wdyasq]

From the only site I found that looked reasonable:

http://www.epa.gov/ow/you/map1.gif

About half way down on this page:

http://www.epa.gov/ow/you/chap1.html

I found this interesting, "More than 99 percent of the water used for thermoelectric power production comes from self-supplied surface water, less than 0.2 percent from public supplies. In 1990, water used for thermoelectric power production represented close to 39 percent of total offstream freshwater use in the United States, but only about 3 percent was consumed."

I doubt I will read through the page and try and figure out exactly what they are saying.  But, needless to say it is government and not clearly written.

Ron

[Nando]

I have tried to get recent data but I am quite busy to do further search, and NO luck, there is some info with about 10 or 15 years old data as supplied by RON ( wdyasq)

Europe uses less, mostly because the cost is to consumer higher, as I was told, I am not sure about such costs.

Water in USA is low in price, if compared to other countries, as I was told.

There is a lot of water not recorded because is private supplied.

Nando

[Stonebrain]

Hi livingwater,

Is the location on the other side in a lower elevation then the spring?

If it is,I think a simple pipe from the spring to that location could

get the water there without a pump.

Just like you can empty a bucket of water with a small pipe over the edge.

In france they call it a "siphon".

The problem of a siphon is often air in the highest point of the pipe.

If water is flowing fast enough the bubbles go out with the waterflow.

But if natural flow is not fast enough (not enough pressure)you might

need a pump to drive the bubbles out.

With 300 feet you mean the water has to be elevated over 300' vertical or

is the way to the crest 300'?

Wat I'm not sure about the maximum height water can be 'sucked up'.

Might be about 10 meters but I'm totaly unsure about this.I will try to figure it

out and tell it if I find.Someone on this board knows?

I think you have first to do some work of mesuring.

You have to know the exact(well say roughly exact)elvetion from the spring

to the crest and the elevation from the other location to the crest.

As well as linear distance of the locations.

In any case it is better to put a pipe dirictly from the spring to the

other location.At least the water that's 'sucking' on the other side of

the hill will allow for a smaller pump and/or smaller pipe diameter.

If the elevation from the spring to the crest is really 300 feet it might be quite

tricky because very high  pressures are involved.

If you want to put watert in bottles maybe better do it at the spring location.

If you have figured out the 'exact' geometry of the traject of the pipe

you can make engineer desisions like pipediameter and pump,but geometry

is a necesery step.

When you have this information I hope some guys of this board can help you

thinking further.

About hydroenergy:well maybe if you make the water go down you might make some

energy but if you want to drink it you have to bring it up again,what costs

the same energy.Don't waste precious water!

Wind energy for the pump?

Maybe.depends on the wind you have and the pump you have to use.

Wind/solar can be a solution but the pump can't be very powerfull.

Hope my thinking helps you

cheers,

Stonebrain.

[whatsnext]

Is the hill really a ridge or does the possiblity excist to go around or through it?

John

[terry5732]

He said he had engineering skills, so no use trying to explain something as simple as a syphon to him.

I think he would be more interested in something expensive and complex. Needing constant power input and maintainance would be better yet.

Everyone on this board would simply use a garden hose syphon.

[elvin1949]

 There might be the possability for a hydrolic ram pump.Let the water do the work.

later

elvin

[dinges]

Thanks for the reply, both of you.

I was wondering too whether that water supply included private people pumping water up as well.

Still, assuming 200 Gal/day being the average for USA, that's still about 4 times as much as over here. As far as price being higher over here, I don't know, but it's very likely. Just about anything is more expensive over here (except drugs, of course... :/ )

Peter,

The Netherlands.

[Stonebrain]

"He said he had engineering skills, so no use trying to explain something as simple as a syphon to him."

Sorry for trying to explain something trivial.Didn't realise it could be offending

for some.

"I think he would be more interested in something expensive and complex."

That's what you think.

"Everyone on this board would simply use a garden hose syphon."

Maybe it wouldn't work.

cheers,

Stonebrain

[Stonebrain]

I found this about ram pumps

"Depending on the difference in heights between the inlet pipe and the outlet pipe, these water pumps will lift 1-20 percent of the water that flows into it. In general, a ram can pump approximately one tenth of the received water volume to a height ten times greater than the intake. A hydraulic ram pump is useful where the water source flows constantly and the usable fall from the water source to the pump location is at least 91 cm (3 ft).

Since ram pumps can only be used in situations where falling water is available, their use is restricted to three main applications:

lifting drinking water from springs to settlements on higher ground.

pumping drinking water from streams that have significant slope.

lifting irrigation water from streams or raised irrigation channels.

Ram Pump Advantages include:

Inexpensive

Very simple construction and easy to install yourself.

Does not consume petrol, diesel or electricity.

Minimum maintenance.

Pollution free.

Quiet pumping 24 hours per day."

Strange,but they forgot to mention the drawback:

You will loose up to 99% of the water.

cheers,

Stonebrain

[Kwazai]

sounds like you've got most of it figured- search for overshot whaterwheel on one of the search engines-there are many diy and 'for sale' versions. You didn't say how high the spring was above the ground (pipe outlet height). and I'm assuming it is an artesian type being fed from the same mountain that is above it. turning a water wheel to provide pumping power should be relatively straightforward- not sure why you want to get electricity out of it in the process- that part would probably be easier on the downhill side- same process waterwheel....

Mike

[finnsawyer]

It was my understanding that the 300 gal/day figure applied to a family of four.

[alcul8r]

Terry,

Not everybody, no.  Most of us know that beyond about 20 ft elevation the siphon is worthless.

As far as the ram suggestion, my understanding is they would like to get all the water over the hill, not just the few percent they could get using a ram.

Rex

[Nando]

GUYS:

HE SAID: ( The main points)

Problem is, first they need to pump it up about 300 feet to the crest of the hill so it can flow down to lower elevations on the other side.

The flow rate is nearly 125 gpm and constant.

Second, there is no electricity.

We are thinking that the water force could drive a wheel that could generate enough electricity to power a pump.

Also, wind and solar are possiblities.

While I have some engineering skills, electricity is not my strong suit.

What I am asking is for some plans, specs or volunteers to help build an apparatus to power the pumps.

Thanks

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now read my initial message, I responded to his items, minimum energy to move ALL the water UP hill to be able to deliver it down the other side with the possibility of using the same water to produce some or all the energy to feed the water up hill.

RAM PUMP no good, high inefficiency,

No open wheels. in-efficient and high water losses

Nando

[Oso]

Peter

Regarding US water usage.  I have been looking at these numbers for some time for another project. I have found that the numbers vary from a low of 40 gallons a day to about 100 gallons per day, per person.  So I tend to believe that the 300 gallons per day would be for a family of four, or about 75 gallons per day, per person.

The price paid in various countries also varies widely. I cam across this report the other day.

http://www.unesco.org/water/wwap/facts_figures/valuing_water.shtml

It puts Canada low at about $0.40/m3 (cubic meter), the US at $O.51/m3, and the Neatherlands at $1.25/m3.  Germany was high at $1.91/m3.

But, I do not think that cost is the only reason for higher US water consumption. The number of americans that live in single family homes is much higher than in europe. I would also say that the houses tend to sit on larger plots of land. Some of our appliances are not as water effecient as the european ones (e.g. washing machines)

All of the water that comes into the property is "drinking water", whether used inside the house or outside.  I believe that the 100 gallons per person per day is probably the total (both inside and outside) and the lower figures such as 40 gallons a day have attempted to eliminate the watering of lawns, large gardens, etc.

The fact that we live much further south and are generally warmer would also increase the amount of water we would use for plants etc.

Hope some of that helps with your understanding.

Oso

[keithturtle]

300 gallons per day per person is unrealistic, especially in undeveloped areas.  300 litres per day is probably the value they meant.   When sizing our wastewater facilities, we allow 115 gallons per day, and assign that value to industrial users when determining population equivalents.

What is the wind resource like there?

A wind turbine generating power to pump the water electrically is probably going to be less efficient than a high torque drag type mill pumping the water directly.

keith

[thirteen]

I now this may be late suggestion but you may look at the lay of the land and see if you could tap into the spring up higher.  I would split the water bottling half and pumping half. maybe move the orphanage to the water source if the land is available. You could build a building and have water for everything along with power you could sell and generate enough power to still pump water back over the hill top.  I do not know the lay of the land so how is taking the water from one area to the next going to help the area that the spring has been giving life to.  Taking from one area deprives another. could you develope the area and make a business out of selling food and bottled water and electricity to other places. Even a daily run of a potable water tank to other areas would possibly make a fair income. The are some great solar pumps around but that costs money . go online and try getting ahold of some one like Solar Plexus and see where they could send you for pumps.  Most pumps will suck water to about 25ft but at that volume you need a pretty good pump. Maybe several solar pums useing two lines. 300 feet up hill is do able. You could use a couple of lift stations one or two should do it.   If you could pipe it around the hill it would be easier. You may need to use a combo of wind and solar to get the water over the hill and thru the woods to grand mothers house.  Be sure a put isolation valves to be able to fix the pumps as needed.  

[soumendunandi]

hi!!

i have done something similar :-

i used a crossflow turbine coupled to a gbx to lift water up to 340ft.... u can see my discusions on microhydro e-group ........... plans for a complete crossflow turbine is there too..........

site conditions:

1. head : 6.13m
   
2. drive flow :160lps
   
3. turbine : bys t2
   
4. gbx:7:1 helical gbx
   
5. pump boiler feed 4.5hp power ----> www.venuspump.com
   
6. lifted flow:70klpd
   
8. lifted height:340ft (approx)