Author Topic: Micro Hydro Questions  (Read 4659 times)

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dbaud

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Micro Hydro Questions
« on: April 16, 2007, 08:33:55 PM »
New to Micro Hydro.  Purchased land in Costa Rica that is way off-grid. I built a house there and need power.  Hard to enjoy nature with  I have springs on land that produce 500+ feet of head with minimum 40Gallons/Min in dry season.  I only need  20 gallons per minute based on calculations and this would allow me to have a functioning system where flow changes are not needed.


I will probably collect the water at a point that is 420 feet above the power house.  I plan on using a 1/4 inch nozzle, and 600 feet of 2" pvc (over sized mainly for future needs).  


 I have a 90s vintage harris pelton wheel that I recently obtained.  I am not very knowledgeable about alternators and/or Micro power, but have been able to find almost all info needed except the following:



  1.  The Harris Pelton wheel I have has a 12Volt 80amp alternator ( I was told that by the person that provided me with the device), but I could find no evidence of that on the alternator.  I entered the numbers on the alternator in google searches and could not get a hit.  Does anyone know where I can get specific documentation on this system......Any setup info.....cautions...etc.  I can't find anything other than prices.
  2.  The Alternator may be damaged, so any suggestions on replacement such where to aquire, suggestions to changes...etc.  I also have found on the internet several companies selling 48 volt kit for alternator, but when asked, the sales folks generally don't know what it is and whether it works with a 12 volt alternator (they pretty much just know the price).  I would like to set up for 48 volts.  I need at least 24 volts to get the Potential out of the existing natural resources.  Trying to get about 800 watts for now.
  3.  I am just starting this project and the only hardware I have right now is the Harris Pelton.  I would appreciate any pointers and/or advice since I am very new to this.  

« Last Edit: April 16, 2007, 08:33:55 PM by (unknown) »

Nando

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Re: Micro Hydro Questions
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2007, 03:45:00 PM »
What is your name ?.


CAN YOU DO AN ACCURATE Head measurement, as well as, the water volume during the dry season and expected the volume during the rains ?.


You need the head ( height) and the length of the pipe.


It is best for you to have a system that produces the higher power during the wet ( winter season) for extra power and may be you do not need to have batteries at all



  1. feet and 40 gallon/min
  2. = 152 meter
  3. gallon = 2.5 liter/sec


power expected " watts = 152 * 2.5 * 6 = 2.28 KW


I have not inputed any losses due to friction and other causes, like the pipe diameter.


Forget the car alternator, quite in-efficient


You can produce AC directly ( 115 Volts AC)


What is the diameter of the pelton NOT from tip to tip but from the center of the spoons or buckets,


Also the Harris Pelton may not be the proper one for the site, the head and the generator define the diameter of the turbine and for your case a possible Turgo may a better solution for an easier way to build the whole turbine.


My address is in the head of this message, correct the anti spam and connect directly to assist you better we then report to this group the better highlights of your project.


Nando

« Last Edit: April 16, 2007, 03:45:00 PM by Nando »

dbaud

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Re: Micro Hydro Questions
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2007, 04:55:09 PM »
Nando,


thanks for the quick feedback.  My name is Dave.  The head information I provided is accurate.  I currently use the water for potable water supply.  I disconnected the existing line (which is too small for power) and put a pressure guage at the end of it.  The ideal location for the intake would be 420 feet.  I basically, improved the intake system, straightened the penstock to eliminate peaks and valleys, installed a snorkel near the intake to purge air and put a pressure guage where I want to put the powerhouse.  I measured a little over 180 PSI static

pressure.  I calculate about 420feet of head.


I really don't want to take the whole 40ml/min during the dry season either because I will take most of the water from a 600 foot stretch of land and don't want to create a detrimental impact on the wildlife and vegitation in that area that depend on that flow.  That is why I'm looking at 420 feet of head and 20gal/min during the dry season.


I can go up another 100 feet or so without losing flow.  It is just very difficult (not impossible) to get that other 100 feet.  The terrain is pretty much 45 degrees of jungle and waterfalls.  That next waterfall is OK to get to with just people and a machette, but very difficult to carry materials up.  Cable and pulley system can solve that if necessary, but I'd rather deal with the 420 feet of head then go the extra 100. (Obviously the wallet has some say in this)  


I measured the penstock distance using string...about 600 feet.  I can measure the flow accurately.  I funnel the entire stream (during the dry season) into a 700 liter plastic container to filter the water.  It fills in almost exactly 4 minutes at the lowest flow.  It calculates out to about 45 gal/min.  I call it 40 to stay within limits.    During the dry season it is pretty stable.  During the rainy season, it varyies wildly and can increase to 10 times that amount.  I haven't measured it at that time of year.  There is too much flow at that point to funnel all the water to my container.  


The pelton wheel is a 4" pelton wheel.  I haven't measured it, but that is the advertised size.  Visually, it looks like 4".  I already have it and would like to use it unless there are strong compelling reasons not to use it.  


From the power house, I will have to send the power about .5 kilometer to where it is going to be used.  It will be used by my house and a caretaker house.  Cooking is all gas.  I usually am there for about 2-3 days at a time, so that was another reason for thinking batteries.  I'm not sold on any solution yet, just explaining my thought process.

« Last Edit: April 16, 2007, 04:55:09 PM by dbaud »

hydrosun

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Re: Micro Hydro Questions
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2007, 09:53:34 AM »
The alternator used on the Harris hydro is a 70 amp @ 12 volt Motorcraft.  It will put out 12 volts efficiently at 2000 rpm, or 100 feet head with  a 4 inch pelton wheel.    At 400 feet head it will spin at  4000 rpm. So it would be ideal to produce 24 volts. So what you need is a 24 volt stator to produce 48 volts at your site.  It has twice as many windings of 1/2 the size wire. You could get that directly from Don Harris or any rebuilder. Unfortunatly it's really hard to tell what you presently have. If you knew where it was used before it would give a clue to what stator was used. The alternator would work as is but not at the 50% efficiency you seem to be using in your calculations. Since you have extra water you could just use a larger nozzle and produce the power you want. I don't know how much efficiency you would lose along with the extra pressure drop in your pipe. You said the alternator may be damaged. Usually it just wears out brushes that can be replaced.

 If you want to upgrade and get more power you can use the Harris base and pelton wheel and change out  the alternator for a permanant magnet variable strength magnet  alternator from Harris. It would be about $800 for the change.

You'd get  higher output and not have to replace brushes. At 400 feet head the maximum output would be 2000 watts with about 40 gallons per minute. I'm not clear on you head loss with your present pipe at that flow.

You could produce AC direct  but that limits your flexibility for bigger loads. Also it might be more expensive since it hard to find small off the shelf units. If you can tinker and  do it yourself it's possible to do it cheaply.  But you already have a hydro in your hands that will work so I'd go with that.

Chris
« Last Edit: April 17, 2007, 09:53:34 AM by hydrosun »

Walt

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Re: Micro Hydro Questions
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2007, 09:53:46 AM »
Dave


The 12-volt system will be very inefficient. By the time you get to the house you will not have any usable power. A higher voltage system will be needed for the 500-meter run from the power shed to the house. Nando is more qualified to advise on your setup. I wish that I had a stream like yours on my place, it sounds like you have the makings of a great system. Keep us informed on how it turns out.


Walt

« Last Edit: April 17, 2007, 09:53:46 AM by Walt »

dbaud

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Re: Micro Hydro Questions
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2007, 01:43:25 PM »
Chris,

     I really appreciate you taking the time to respond and help educate me.  The existing alternator is physically damaged, so I'm not sure if it works, that is why I wanted to get info on replacing it.  I was told (by the individual that sold it to me) that it was an 80amp 12volt alternator.  It is Remy Delco.  It spins nicely (normal to my estimation), but has cracks in the body of the alternator (probably from shipping).  


    I presently have small 1" tubing supplying the water (for potable only at this point).  I am going to replace this with something more substantial, so the size of the penstock is something that I can control and need to make a decision about.  


    I Spoke to nando earlier who pretty much convinced me that I should invest in a 3" penstock and go AC direct so that I can be prepared for future growth needs.  My concern, as you mentioned,  was dealing with bigger short time loads.  Nando mentioned that this problem can be overcomed with a multi nozzle system in which the extra nozzles are controlled through electronically controlled valves to provide short time extra RPM (power) when neccessary and use a turgo for higher output potential.  My water source grows from 40gal/min in the dry season to probably 400 or more in the rainy season.  Obviously this would only be an issue in the dry season.


    I would love to use the pelton I have, but my focus is on a more long term plan.  I screwed up by buying the pelton before studying the problem and speaking with experts such as yourselves.  I don't, however, want to continue with the Pelton system if it doesn't really fit with my long term plans.  i can always sell the pelton system.  


     Again, Thanks a bunch for your input.  I'm amazed and encourged at the helpfulness of this community.  


Dave.

« Last Edit: April 17, 2007, 01:43:25 PM by dbaud »

Nando

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Re: Micro Hydro Questions
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2007, 01:46:36 PM »
Just to inform the group

Dave and I talked for about 2 hours on his project and a lot of ideas were cleared about what he could do with his project and how to obtain a better system for his land and under the water availability and its variation during the year and how to tap the most of the power available as needed during peak power demands like when starting a refrigerator or other appliances.


The project will take several months to accomplish and he may report on his advances.


Nando

« Last Edit: April 17, 2007, 01:46:36 PM by Nando »

dbaud

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Re: Micro Hydro Questions
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2007, 02:12:36 PM »
Walt,

     thanks for the encouragement.  I've spoken to Nando (a wealth of knowledge and experience mixed with an incredible sense of humor).  He gave me some really great ideas!
« Last Edit: April 17, 2007, 02:12:36 PM by dbaud »

A6D9

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Re: Micro Hydro Questions
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2007, 07:51:00 PM »
if you plan on selling the pelton....do you have any ideas ballpark what your lookign for it?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2007, 07:51:00 PM by A6D9 »

dbaud

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Re: Micro Hydro Questions
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2007, 07:37:50 AM »
Darren,  the Pelton wheel is in Costa Rica.  I'll probably sell the unit for what i have into it.  With shipping, I have $820.00 into the unit.


Dave.

« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 07:37:50 AM by dbaud »

A6D9

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Re: Micro Hydro Questions
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2007, 10:00:02 AM »
wow thanx for the reply.  I'm sure you could sell it for that.  but too rich for my blood.  


GF won't allow me to spend that much on a "toy"  ;)


+ I'm in canada  so odds are shipping would kill me...lol


but thanx anyways  :)

« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 10:00:02 AM by A6D9 »

dbaud

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Re: Micro Hydro Questions
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2007, 10:49:34 AM »
It is a good deal for someone in Costa Rica, but probably not otherwise.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 10:49:34 AM by dbaud »

Nando

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Re: Micro Hydro Questions
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2007, 06:48:29 PM »
Darren:


I hope you can read this,

Connect directly with me, to see how you can build a hydro turbine quite in-expensively and quite good for your needs


Nando

« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 06:48:29 PM by Nando »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Micro Hydro Questions
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2007, 07:56:30 PM »
Have you looked into running a fat high-pressure pipe from the current outlet to somewhere nearer your electrical load and doing the generation there?  It might give you lower losses or lower cost at a given loss (given the high price of copper wire).


Alternatively:  The kind of distances you're running your power argue for high-voltage generation and transmission, with a step-down near the load.  If you're building or converting an alternator you can have it run at high voltage from the start, and just transform near the load.

« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 07:56:30 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

A6D9

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Re: Micro Hydro Questions
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2007, 06:32:16 AM »
Nando....

I knwo you have a pasion for micro hydro, and I'm not going to lie, I will contact you when the time is right.  


However.  I'm just in the startign stages now, and as I read on the site.  the most important thing is a site survey.  and to be honenst I don;t have a site yet.


I'm just dreaming and thinking out loud...


I plan on gettign my own property in the coming year or two and my #1 priority will be to have a site that will be RE friendly.  Idealy I would love to run a micro hydro and wind set up.


But as it is for now.  I am trying to price things out and see where it will place me.


So right now I'm affraid if I contact you.  I will simply be waistign your time.


and I don;t wana do that, becasue if I did, I don;t want you to be upset and not want to help me in the future.


I respect you all and your time and info you have provided me.  :)


 

« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 06:32:16 AM by A6D9 »

dbaud

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Re: Micro Hydro Questions
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2007, 02:16:56 PM »
ULR,


Yes, I have considered that.  The problem is that there is a large hump between the intake and the load.  It seems that electrons don't care about travelling against gravity (resistance of he wire and current being the only factors indeterming losses) whereas water does (peaks in penstock creates air pockets).  


I am, however, having my workers walk from the source to the load using a path that incorporates a steady decline.  the problem is that this path is considerably longer since it follows a ridge.  They are walking that trail pulling some string to measure the distance.  I'll see what the results are.


The bottom line is that I was considering both of your points, that is why I was also asking about changing my existing Harris Pelton Wheel from a 12 volt system to a 48 volt system.  Then I can almost quadruple the maximum power output and/or have the option of having the alternator farther away from batteries.


I am also, considering AC direct at this point.  That could possibly end up being the best solution.


Dave.

« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 02:16:56 PM by dbaud »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Micro Hydro Questions
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2007, 10:07:51 PM »
The problem is that there is a large hump between the intake and the load.  It seems that electrons don't care about travelling against gravity (resistance of he wire and current being the only factors indeterming losses) whereas water does (peaks in penstock creates air pockets).


If I understand this correctly:


Humps in the pipe shouldn't be an issue as long as they're below the inlet and the total rise of multiple humps never exceeds the drop at any distance from the inlet (which could create vapor lock).  With that criterion met, water flow should start automatically and eventually carry the bubble(s) away.  Even if the initial flow is not adequate to carry the bubbles down, the rising pressure as the water descends the hill will increase the solubility of the air at lower parts of the pipe.  If all the humps are significantly below the inlet this will eventually dissolve the air into the water and remove it that way.


Regardless:


If the multiple-hump anti-vapor-lock criterion is NOT met - or if the flow isn't adequate to purge the air in a reasonable time, you can always drill a pinhole leak into each high point.  (Or install a purge valve.  Or an automatic air purge valve {with an internal float} like those used on a solar heating system that must be drained occasionally to avoid freezing.)


If your pinhole leaks (or other purging systems) get clogged and then things somehow get vapor locked, stick a cotter pin into each leak hole (and go to leak holes as a purge mechanism).  As with doing this in the "snifter" hole of a hydraulic ram, it should be jiggled around by the water flow and continuously sweep debris and corrosion from the hole.


The bottom line is that I was considering both of your points, that is why I was also asking about changing my existing Harris Pelton Wheel from a 12 volt system to a 48 volt system.


Or you could tap most of the AC from the existing alternator upstream of the diodes and use transformers to step it up to whatever is convenient for shipping it on higher-tension lines to the load.  Then transformer it down to something useful once it gets there.  Keep the diodes in place and add a local battery to provide an excitation source at the alternator.  The regulator will do what is necessary to provide a clean voltage source.


You'll have more loss than if you generated a higher voltage in the first place - but for significant distances you'd want to use 8 KV or so anyhow and you don't want to have that in your alternator.


Hams used to use this hack to get high voltage high wattage for tube transmitters in their automobiles back when alternators were new.


Don't sweat that the frequency is high:  That lets you use smaller transformers.  (You have to take it into account when you pick the transformer windings, though.)  For about 1/3 mile with elevated wiring skin effect won't be an issue at high audio frequencies.  At the far end you can transform it down to something sane for charging your main batteries and go from there.


If you're interested in doing it this way I can describe the hacks for picking the correct transformer.  Basic idea is that transformers and generators are a match for saturation effects.  So find out the lowest frequency "F" where the alternator will generate the correct voltage.  For a delta-connected transformer set with ratings based on 60 Hz the voltage rating for the low-voltage side would be 12 * 60/F.  Current rating must meet or exceed the genny's maximum current output.  (Scale appropriately if you want to connect Y.)  Output voltage would also scale in proportion - the ratio stays the same.


Sky wires will need disconnects and surge protectors at each end, just like the power company.

« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 10:07:51 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

dbaud

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Re: Micro Hydro Questions
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2007, 08:50:13 AM »
Rod,  Again, thanks for the reply and the info.  right now, I'm reevaluating site location.  I was able to find alternative suppliers for penstock, and that has driven the price down significantly for 3" pipe.  

« Last Edit: April 20, 2007, 08:50:13 AM by dbaud »

Vtbsr

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Re: Micro Hydro Questions
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2007, 06:01:57 AM »
Hello dbaud, With the Harris ,it is a good idea to change the top and bottom bearing on the alternator, and the brushes once a year. The brush assembly has to have one wire solded in. Most motor or car starter repair shops can check your alternator. They can spin it up and can check output. You could get a new a 48 v alt. from Harris and would not have to scrap what you have allready. How many nozzels are on your harris? If you go with the bat bank, you could combine with some solar in case one system is down for repair. You will find with your site you could get all your hot water from your dunp load. If you can only get 100 ft. of head you will get a nice output. Maybe you don't have to get the 180 pound pressure with all that distance of the penstock. Sound like a great place to put a system in.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2007, 06:01:57 AM by Vtbsr »

dbaud

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Re: Micro Hydro Questions
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2007, 08:43:20 AM »
Vtbsr,

 Thanks for the comments.  I'll update as the system progresses.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2007, 08:43:20 AM by dbaud »