Author Topic: need advice on making a solar porch light  (Read 6914 times)

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xboxman

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need advice on making a solar porch light
« on: March 21, 2009, 03:47:41 PM »
i have a  Endor Star (White) 300 Lumen and a buck puck driver .

i'm going to drive the LED at 350 ma and i have 2 new SLA batts that go to a electric start push lawn mower ...it's 12 Volts and 4.5 AH  so i was wondering what type charge controller i should use ?

i'm guessing that i will need about 800 ma of solar charge ?? if the light is used about 10 hours each night ?

any advice would be great

thanks
« Last Edit: March 21, 2009, 03:47:41 PM by (unknown) »

Madscientist267

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Re: need advice on making a solar porch light
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2009, 10:13:28 AM »
The info provided about what you have and what you intend to do with it is a bit on the vague side...


Can't determine if since you are using a buck converter to drive the LED, if the 350mA refers to current into the LED itself, or the current the buck converter is drawing from the battery. Either is feasable, but makes a big difference in calculating the power requirements.


One would assume that you are also going to use both batteries in parallel, totaling 12V @ 9AH.


Your best bet for calculating what you need is to convert everything into watts. It makes the math easier.


The very basic raw info you need to know to come up with a workable setup is:


A - How much battery capacity you have, in this case 108WH (12Vx9AH)


B - How much power the LED will use.


Using an average drop of 3.2V for white LED's, 350mA would use 1.12W of power. This is neglecting the efficiency losses of the converter, since in this scenario, that information is missing.


If the 350mA is the power going into the buck converter, you're looking at 4.2 watts, and includes the losses in the converter. Big difference.


C - Worst case scenario of how long you expect to have the light on. Going with the 10 hours you specified, this works out to either 11.2WH (plus losses) or 42WH depending on the above.


For the former scenario, the battery is fairly well matched (and has plenty of reserve) to power the LED on a nightly basis, draining it by just over 10%. The latter, not so much. You'd be around 40% discharge nightly (at a minimum); with not-so-sunny days making the following night pull it well into the 'danger' zone, shortening their lifespan considerably. Don't expect your SLA's to hang around long in this situation.


The PV capacity needed is all about philosophy and how much insolation you get where you live, and different people will say different things. Where I am, an average panel capacity of about 150% of my load covers my use, but I also don't run the loads all night either. On that same note, I usually have a surplus on most days.


If the components are reasonably matched, you probably won't need any kind of special charge controller for this. A 14V zener rated at 1A would provide all the surplus power dumping your system would ever need and then some, and is simple and cost effective.


Hope this helps...


Steve

« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 10:13:28 AM by Madscientist267 »
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xboxman

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Re: need advice on making a solar porch light
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2009, 03:26:32 PM »
i'm new at this so i'm sorry for not giving enough info.

the buck puck driver has a out put of 350ma  ( if i'm reading the info that came with it right ).

yes i'm going with the batts wired in parallel .

i think my led has a 9.45Vf - Forward Voltage @ 350mA .. it has 3 led's mounted on a star board well here's a link take a look incase i'm wrong  http://www.ledsupply.com/07007-pwc-10-3.php

and my buck puck driver here http://www.ledsupply.com/03023-d-n-350.php

now if my voltage drop on the led board is 9.45 v @350ma total  i will be  at 3.3 watts ?? ( not sure how to fit in losses) so if i'm thinking right i still have enough battery power ?

now if i use a charge controller and i get a few not so sunny days will the charge controller cut off the power from the batts going to the led to save the batts when the battery voltage drops down to low ??

thanks for the info so far  there is more work to this stuff that what most people think
« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 03:26:32 PM by gameman »

Madscientist267

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Re: need advice on making a solar porch light
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2009, 06:56:25 PM »
With the arrangement that I believe you have, it comes out to yes, about 3.3W. So to run it 10 hours would use 33WH of power dissipated by the LED module itself.


The losses, assuming the datasheet for the converter is accurate, are about 7% for nominal 12V, or 93% efficient. Call it 90% efficient to make math easy, and give a little wiggle room.


So for every watt in, 100mW will be wasted as heat in the converter. To get your 3.3W to the LED, you'll be pulling just shy of 3.7W from the batteries, losing ~0.4W as heat.


This works out to 37WH, which as I mentioned earlier, is really stretching it health-wise for 108WH of battery, at just over 33% of capacity. Depending on design, the batteries may or may not tolerate this well. You mentioned they were for cranking a lawnmower; batteries designed to crank generally aren't set up for deeper cycling than a few percent of capacity. On this small of a scale, tho, I couldn't say for sure. If not, a few sunless days and the grim reaper will visit them early. :(


As for a charge controller disconnecting the LED from the battery when the voltage drops to a certain point, yes, some do. The caveat here is that you'll probably spend more on the charge controller that does this than all of the other components combined (based on what I've seen so far).


http://www.windsun.com/ChargeControls/ChargeCont.htm has a down-n-dirty explaination of what they are, when they're needed, and what they are and aren't designed to do.


A undervolt cutoff could be done much cheaper with the DIY approach: A comparator chip, a few resistors, a zener, and a MOSFET as the master disconnect. I'm assuming you're already going to be using a light sensor of some sort to shut it down during the day, right? It wouldn't be hard to integrate the cutoff circuitry into the existing schematic. Consider a timer circuit as well, shortening even to 5 hours each night will improve your margins a good deal.


And like I said, for the charge control itself, all you need to do is dump the surplus once the batteries are full. A single zener of appropriate power handling will work beautifully for this since you're talking such small quantities of power.


As for being new, experimenting is how you get your wings (sorry guys, couldn't resist). And yes, concepts and real world don't line up perfectly, leading to deeper thought than what is on the surface. But tweaking concepts is what this place is all about. Don't be afraid to try things, just use extra caution when either of the following two circumstances are present:



  1. - Expensive parts. It really sucks when you let the magic smoke out of something you just payed really good money for. Cheap components? Eh, who cares. Dime a dozen... :)
  2. - When you or someone else around you could be in danger as a result of your experiment. A couple trips to the ER have taught me a thing or two... :(


Generally the latter doesn't apply to things like solar porch lights...


Other than that? Don't be afraid to ask. There's good people here. Many very knowledgeable. As long as you've done a little homework (ie you're not trying to power your house from a 9V battery and a garden solar light), they're usually more than happy to help.


Steve

« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 06:56:25 PM by Madscientist267 »
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ghurd

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Re: need advice on making a solar porch light
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2009, 09:42:07 PM »
What Steve said.


And I will guess the batteries are used, because I hope you did not buy the batterie$ at a mower shop.

All electric start push lawn mower batteries I ever saw were SLAs.

Meaning they were abused from use, and spent long periods sitting under charged or over charging.

Do not expect them to hold 4.5AH.


The 800ma looks OK on paper, but it is close to C/10 of the combined battery rating.

It won't take long before the battery voltage is high, and charge controller will not let that many amps into the battery.  Meaning just because the panel can make 800ma for 4.5 hours does not mean the battery can accept it.  The battery can only supply what it accepted.


I would say you need a larger battery.  Maybe 12AH SLA.  Larger and common enough to be "semi cost effective".


Might find it is about the same cost to get a 85AH deep cycle (that does not claim to double as a boat starting battery) from Wally World.

Leading to you may find a 40W panel is not a lot more cost than a 15W panel.

So a few more bucks gets a lot bigger system.  Run the light, charge cell phones and ipods, maybe a CFL in the living room on summer nights.


We still do not know your location, so 800ma may not even be close to enough in winter.  The worst case month here would run the light about 1 hour per day, but this is a terrible place for solar in winter.

G-

« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 09:42:07 PM by ghurd »
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xboxman

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Re: need advice on making a solar porch light
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2009, 01:04:15 PM »
Hi Guys

just now getting time to get back with you all on this

the batts are new but i own the mower shop LOL

i'm thinking now of fixing the light with a motion sensor that would cut down on the battery i need power .

any one got any ideas for a motion sensor solar powered porch light ?

thanks
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 01:04:15 PM by gameman »

TomW

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Re: need advice on making a solar porch light
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2009, 03:14:24 PM »


any one got any ideas for a motion sensor solar powered porch light ?


I tried to tell that Glen guy over at Hurd Solar that would be a useful circuit. But, no, he has gotten so rich on his controller sales that he doesn't need the money, I guess.


If you go there, read his disclaimer closely. I figure from the way that is written he is either a Lawyer or married to a Lawyer.


Ha.


Tom

« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 03:14:24 PM by TomW »

ghurd

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Re: need advice on making a solar porch light
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2009, 08:07:30 PM »
After agreeing to the disclaimer...


Starting from scratch, or buying a 12V sensor, is quite pricey.


Can re-work some 110VAC sensors, but then need some method to attach everything together.


Can hack the 6V solar powered motion ("security") light kit with separate solar panel about the same way, but it is kind of an ugly thing.  And the current selection is mostly junk.


It is a lot cheaper (and easier) to hack a 4 AA motion sensor light.

Motion sensor lights with a CDS / LDR (shuts off the circuit in daylight) are nice.

LM7806 and 2 caps in the AA compartment, logic level power fet where the factory bulb was connected, 12V LED set up under the diffuser (or however you like), and run the whole thing from 12V.


G-

« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 08:07:30 PM by ghurd »
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wooferhound

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Re: need advice on making a solar porch light
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2009, 03:04:47 AM »
Solar powered Motion Sensor Security Light.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-3&ca
talogId=10053&productId=100645211

« Last Edit: April 17, 2009, 03:04:47 AM by wooferhound »

ghurd

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Re: need advice on making a solar porch light
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2009, 06:28:13 AM »
That is the only decent one I ever saw.  I didn't think they were still making it.

It is 6V.  I hacked them over to 12V and ran them off larger 12V systems.


As they come from the factory, they don't last long because the battery is almost always drained, and they don't run many minutes per night because the battery is small.

The sensor is nice (very sensitive- a windy night, or a rabbit in the yard will keep the light on until the battery is dead), and the housing is gasketed.

Modifying it is about the same as the 4 AA type.


I see some installed with the light inside, in a feed or tack room.  They seems well suited to that, or other situations where the light is only on a few minutes a day.

The factory bulb pulls over 2A, and the panel makes about 200ma, IIRC.

G-

« Last Edit: April 17, 2009, 06:28:13 AM by ghurd »
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fernbrae

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Re: need advice on making a solar porch light
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2009, 02:35:55 AM »
for a 12 volt motion detector

go to

www.hafele.com.au

have a look at the online ctaalogues and scroll down to Reflections cat

download and look at the page 20 this shows the motion detector

Get in touch with Hafele Australia and talk to greg thompson.

These are not expensive.

lots of other good LED lights also.

Rgds

Greg
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 02:35:55 AM by fernbrae »

ghurd

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Re: need advice on making a solar porch light
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2009, 07:35:15 AM »
Strange timing.

Currently tinkering with one of the 6V Heath Zenith panels removed during the 12V conversion.

It is 100ma, Not 200ma.

G-
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 07:35:15 AM by ghurd »
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