Author Topic: Furling Question  (Read 2855 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Roger Stafford

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
Furling Question
« on: January 04, 2010, 10:08:58 AM »
 HI everyone

I'm haveing trouble getting my 17ft OTHERPOWER wind gen to go to fully furled. I've aready changed the offset (from the yaw bearing to the gen) from 8 1/2" to 12 1/2" This helped but I think it's still not furling soon enough. My tail vane runs up about even with the top of the blade sweep, and I think it should be closer to the middle of the blade sweep. Will this help get it to fully furl? I think the furling post is at the recommended angle from the book. But I made the tail angle to much. Thanks in advance for your help.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 10:08:58 AM by (unknown) »

Flux

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 6275
Re: Furling Question
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2010, 11:49:03 AM »
I am probably not the best person to advise you as I haven't built one of these machines but in general the ideas apply and size doesn't affect things much.


I don't follow your issue with the tail, without seeing exactly what you have it is hard to know what is going on.


If you have things correct and no tail stops you should have this. The pivot should be something like half way round from straight back at say 45 to 60 deg and inclined at about 20 deg and pointing downwards at the 45 or so deg direction.


If you had no tail stops the tail should hang down at the 45 deg angle at 20 deg below horizontal. You arrange a stop so that the thing stays something like straight back, at this point it should be about horizontal and will be held by gravity against the stop. When you bring it to the furl position it should rise above horizontal nearly 20 deg. The 20 deg point would actually be in front of the blades and directly opposite the low point with no stops. You need to stop it parallel to the blades to prevent it striking and that is your other stop.


In real life the thing pointing straight back will not point the blades directly into the wind as you will have an offset thrust from the alternator offset. You need to set the back stop some degrees past straight back towards the direction where it would hang with no stop. It really needs a lot to keep it directly into the wind but I would compromise at about 30 deg, any more looks silly and starts to mess up the control force curve. If you end up with the blades running at 30 deg to the wind in normal operation that will have very little effect.


I would arrange the tail to be about horizontal when offset away from furl at about 30 deg and sitting on the stop. If it droops a little at this point it won't matter but I wouldn't have it rising.


Many people have extreme difficulty visualising all this and I am not sure whether you can imagine what would happen without the stops, it's a bit drastic to remove them but much easier to understand the whole process.


Your 12.something inch offset should be safe. If everything is set up at the correct angles then you have a tail moment that is too large compared with the moment from thrust on the alternator offset. You can reduce the hinge vertical inclination angle or make the tail lighter. I strongly suspect the 20 deg is rather large unless you make a real effort to keep the tail light.


The less you make the hinge angle the more critical it becomes to the tower being vertical but otherwise you can reduce it if you can't lighten the tail.


I somehow suspect you may have the geometry wrong somewhere but without seeing it I really can't comment. I hope you can follow my description but it is not easy to describe.


Flux

« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 11:49:03 AM by Flux »

Roger Stafford

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
Re: Furling Question
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2010, 12:44:03 PM »
Hi Flux

Thanks for the feed back I think I follow what you are saying. My tail section is not horizontal but the rest I think is right. The tail angles up to where the top of the vane is almost horizontal with the top of tne blades. Haven't figured out yet how to post photos with postings but if you look at my files I have 62 pictures posted there. Also if you look at my previous post Tom W did post a picture of the gen with out blades and tail. I tried to incert picture don't know if it will work.Thanks again

 Roger
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 12:44:03 PM by Roger Stafford »

DanB

  • Global Moderator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2151
  • Country: us
    • otherpower.com
Re: Furling Question
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2010, 12:51:55 PM »
curious what sort of maximum sustained output are you seeing from it?  It could just be that it's not windy enough for it to furl further...
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 12:51:55 PM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

Roger Stafford

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
Re: Furling Question
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2010, 01:10:21 PM »
HI Dan

 I'm back in Florida now, but when I was there I was seeing 3 to 4 kw at around 30to35mph (estimated). The gen was furling some but never saw it furl all the way. Going to buy a anemometer soon so when I get to go back I can install it and get more answers. Am I right in thinking that it should start furling around 25mph? I want to try to insert photo again with this reply. I t didn't seem to work last time.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 01:10:21 PM by Roger Stafford »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2865
Re: Furling Question
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2010, 01:13:59 PM »
With the "unfurled" stop properly adjusted the correcting force on the slightly-out-to-one-side tail with balance the offset force and both will increase in about the same proportion as the wind rises.  So the mill will face the wind pretty well up to the point where the wind is so high that furling starts.


(This is approximate because much of the offset drag is related to load on the mill, which is not in the right proportion to wind speed for typical battery-charging PMA mills.  Fortunately, the falloff from furling is a cosine law and cosine is close to flat for a considerable range of angles around the peak.  So power loss from a few degrees tracking error is lost in the noise.)


You probably want it facing straight into the wind in winds a bit above cutin, when available power is low so what you get is most precious and you don't want to waste any.  Another choice is to have it facing the wind when you're in your "typical" wind speed range, to maximize overall power collection.  You'd do this if your site rarely has long low-wind periods.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 01:13:59 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Flux

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 6275
Re: Furling Question
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2010, 02:03:45 PM »
I can't get to your pictures for some reason not even using the link that Tom inserted previously.


From the look of the picture that Tom posted I suspect your angle is nearer 30 deg and that would push furling up a lot.


It's not so much what speed it starts but what the maximum power is limited to. 4kW is pushing things so you really ought to be furled before that for sustained power, a few gusts wouldn't matter too much but in higher winds the mean power starts to get nearer the peak and the total heat goes up very rapidly as the cooling intervals get smaller.


If you are holding things down to a sensible speed at 30 plus mph then you must be well stalled and I suspect you are not furling at all. If it pulls through the stall then you may get way too much for it to survive. Despite all the evidence people give here I really have never seen a furling machine that doesn't drop power when it really does go into furl. Maybe you can hit a point where furling kicks in just as stall regulation fails and hold this constant power, I have never met it with my loading schemes. I have to try tricks to even keep the furled power up to something sensible.


Flux

« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 02:03:45 PM by Flux »

fabricator

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3394
  • Country: us
  • My smoke got out again
Re: Furling Question
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2010, 02:16:04 PM »
It sure seems to me that it would be better to have a hinge angle somewhat lower than the usual 20 degree figure, it seems like you could use something like 12 degrees with a  relatively light tail then add weight if it is furling too early, rather than try to build an ultra light tail.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 02:16:04 PM by fabricator »
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

dlenox

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 352
    • PowerDashboard monitoring/logging software for RE systems
Re: Furling Question
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2010, 02:46:09 PM »
Ouch,


This all sounds vaguely familiar, welcome to the world of larger turbines.


Guess we now have some more guinee pigs, err I mean test cases other than just me now...


Dan

« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 02:46:09 PM by dlenox »

DanB

  • Global Moderator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2151
  • Country: us
    • otherpower.com
Re: Furling Question
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2010, 02:59:57 PM »
http://fieldlines.com/user/Roger%20Stafford/files


Flux - if you like, try that link (it seems to work fine for me)

« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 02:59:57 PM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

Flux

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 6275
Re: Furling Question
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2010, 12:35:44 AM »
Thanks Dan.


Don't know why it wouldn't work yesterday, I tried Firefox and IE. Works fine now.


I don't see anything obviously wrong, I just think the tail hinge angle is a bit more than it ought to be so it may not be possible to get the tail light enough.


Flux

« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 12:35:44 AM by Flux »

Flux

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 6275
Re: Furling Question
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2010, 12:47:37 AM »
I think I would go less then 20 but don't go too drastic. With the hinge near vertical the thing becomes affected by any error in the yaw pivot being truly vertical. I also think you may reach a point where you need to abandon pipe on pipe and use bearings for the tail hinge or the thing will be very sluggish coming back out of furl.


I wouldn't be inclined to go below 15 deg unless you are really forced to..


Flux

« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 12:47:37 AM by Flux »

imsmooth

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 425
Re: Furling Question
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2010, 04:27:47 AM »
I don't know if these pictures of my tail and angles will help, but here they are:


http://www.mindchallenger.com/wind/axial11.html


and


http://www.mindchallenger.com/wind/axial15.html

« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 04:27:47 AM by imsmooth »

Roger Stafford

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
Re: Furling Question
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2010, 09:27:53 AM »
Hi Flux

 I want to thank you and everyone else for all your time and advice. When I get back to Arkansas I will do this and post my results.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 09:27:53 AM by Roger Stafford »

kiszka6911

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: Furling Question
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2010, 08:46:50 PM »
I am new to the group but the company I work for has been developing a small 2.5 kw HAWT with a furling tail.  Based on your pictures I think you are asking you unit to furl against the gyroscopic forces. The direction of your offset and furling looks reversed. I would be interested in any of the more senior members comments on this. Thanks
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 08:46:50 PM by kiszka6911 »