Author Topic: Capacitor/Motor Combo  (Read 3352 times)

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Bayesoft

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Capacitor/Motor Combo
« on: March 07, 2007, 08:04:35 PM »
Is this the correct capacitor to use with the following DC motor?  How many of these capacitors will I need?






Uh, might help if you mentioned what you want to do with them?


« Last Edit: March 07, 2007, 08:04:35 PM by (unknown) »

alancorey

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Re: Capacitor/Motor Combo
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2007, 03:40:08 PM »
Yeah, really (to the editor's comment).


My question was going to be why?  Why do you want to use capacitors with a DC motor?  It's not an induction motor that you're trying to generate AC from.  You don't need 350 volt caps (is that an AC or DC cap?) if you're only producing 48 volts or less for a battery bank.  You don't need them at all for that, but if for some reason you wanted to filter the output after the rectifiers you'd probably want something rated around 70 volts.  You'd get a lot more microfarads in the same space for about the same money with the lower voltage rating.


The only reason I can see to use them at all is if you're going to put each phase of the motor through its own bridge rectifier then wire the rectifiers in series for more voltage like in this picture from a recent post by wooderhound: http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/231/3phase.gif


In that case you probably want several times 2200 MFD, but you don't need anything close to 350 volts.  The microfarads (or maybe farads at this power level) would have to be worked out by capacitive reactance, and that will depend on the frequency of the AC going into the rectifiers, which we don't know.


You probably don't need them at all.


  Alan

« Last Edit: March 07, 2007, 03:40:08 PM by alancorey »

alancorey

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Re: Capacitor/Motor Combo
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2007, 03:53:59 PM »
My last 2 paragraphs would only apply if you rewind the motor, and they're a last-ditch attempt to figure out why you'd need capacitors.


 Alan

« Last Edit: March 07, 2007, 03:53:59 PM by alancorey »

Bayesoft

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Re: Capacitor/Motor Combo
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2007, 11:38:01 PM »
Oh....


So if you use a DC motor as a wind generator.  You don't need/have to even out the voltage with a DC capacitor?  What are DC capacitors used for then?


I thought I read somewhere that caps were needed/being used in DC wind generator systems.


Ok, so since my motor is three-phase DC.  What components should I be getting.


My system will be 12 volt for now.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2007, 11:38:01 PM by Bayesoft »

alancorey

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Re: Capacitor/Motor Combo
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2007, 10:31:45 AM »
They may be used in DC wind generators, but most of those don't use DC motors.  A DC motor will put out DC that's mostly clean (maybe some brush noise) and doesn't need a capacitor.  This would be close to using one of the Ametek tape drive motors, only much larger.


If you've already got this motor, hook a scope or voltmeter up to it and spin it over somehow.  If you get DC output then you're all set.  If you don't get anything then the motor probably doesn't have permanent magnets built into it.  It used part of the DC fed to it to create a magnetic field.  You'll need to add magnets to it before it will generate power, in much the same way as any other motor conversion.  It will probably require some machining.


> Ok, so since my motor is three-phase DC.

There isn't any such thing.  Only AC has phases.  If you rewind it, you may want to make it 3-phase.


The main difference between an AC generator (AKA alternator) and a DC generator is that the DC one usually has brushes to keep the polarity of the voltage coming out going in the right direction.  If you spin a coil in a magnetic field (or magnets inside a coil) the result will be AC.  In a DC motor or generator the brushes connect to each coil in one direction and then 180 degrees later they're connecting in the opposite direction because the shaft has turned.  It's sort of the original rectifier (or a mechanical rectifier).  Brushes have disadvantages: they wear out, make sparks and electrical noise, and add friction to make the motor/generator harder to turn.  Generating AC is better because it can be done without brushes, and you use rectifiers to convert to DC.  If you mount the magnets on the rotor (because they don't need wires connecting to them) then you don't need brushes because the coils aren't moving.


You should probably let the motor decide what voltage you're going to use.  That will depend on how fast you can turn it.  Probably the best thing is to get it spinning and measure.


 Alan

« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 10:31:45 AM by alancorey »

Bayesoft

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Re: Capacitor/Motor Combo
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2007, 11:52:53 AM »
I did some searching and found that the "SR" in the model number refers to "Switch Reluctance".  I found this website:


http://www.fleadh.co.uk/srm.htm


So the motor "is" 3-Phase "and" brushless.


Now what??


I bought the motor on ebay last week and it hasn't arrived yet.

« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 11:52:53 AM by Bayesoft »

Bayesoft

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Re: Capacitor/Motor Combo
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2007, 12:14:51 PM »
More info....


The rotor contains no magnets, just iron laminate.


I could machine down the rotor and glue down bar magnets.  Would four magnets and six windings be enough?  Maybe I should just make a new rotor?


I saw that zubbly made a nice one for a conversion not too long ago.

« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 12:14:51 PM by Bayesoft »

ghurd

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Re: Capacitor/Motor Combo
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2007, 03:07:14 PM »
There was a post quite a while ago with a smaller switch reluctance motor.

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/12/28/153/72126


Don't buy magnets until you see the inside of it.


The link looks a lot like my box fan. LOL.

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2050/Fan.jpg

G-

« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 03:07:14 PM by ghurd »
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alancorey

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Re: Capacitor/Motor Combo
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2007, 03:17:21 PM »
I don't see an SR in the model number.  Are you still talking about the Boston Gear DC motor or did you buy the other one and put the wrong picture up this time?  I didn't know a DC motor could be variable/switched reluctance.


I have 2 variable reluctance motors that came from washing machines or dishwashers (local dump acquisition) and I haven't opened either one up or done anything with them because the stories I read on this board about them don't sound very promising.  People have described rewinding and replacing the rotor and they're still strange.  Mine are 3 phase AC (and variable speed) and I grabbed them because they have nice 3/4 inch shafts and bearings that seem OK.  I thought at least I could use them for yaw bearings on a small mill.


Mine have strange laminations on the outside that seem to have gaps between the layers.  One of the articles I read here talked about holding onto one of them and feeling almost a mild shock running around on the outside of the case, and there's a warning not to ground the case.  Mine looks like the one at http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/12/28/153/72126 also similar to http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/3/15/143523/391 and http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/7/14/42640/9511 and http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/10/5/145655/736

DanG gave up on his in that last posting above.


Switched reluctance is beyond my limited experience.  I'm giving up on yours since I haven't even played with mine yet.


  Alan

« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 03:17:21 PM by alancorey »

Bayesoft

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Re: Capacitor/Motor Combo
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2007, 11:54:47 AM »



Switched Reluctance and Variable Reluctance are terms that are interchangeable.


I contacted the seller and got a tracking number for my motor.  It should be here on Monday.  I'll crack it open and take some pics.


A setup like this would be nice.




I can guess at the configuration, but in the end I won't be sure until the motor gets here and I open it up.  I hope I didn't waste my money on a dud.  Suppose I could always put it back on Ebay for sale.

« Last Edit: March 10, 2007, 11:54:47 AM by Bayesoft »

nothing to lose

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Re: Capacitor/Motor Combo
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2007, 05:29:33 AM »
> Ok, so since my motor is three-phase DC.<


"There isn't any such thing.  Only AC has phases. "


Sorry Alan,

I think I have Efka 3phase DC PM brushless motors, 750watt.

Is 3~ meaning 3 phase, and I think I read on their site once they were 3 phase.

And it does have 3 power wires, all hot when spun.

 I think it would be like a servo motor?


Nothing like his though, which is probably just a normal DC motor. I may have one similar, if so a Brush type PM, but hard to tell from picture and I can't read the label.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 05:29:33 AM by nothing to lose »

alancorey

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Re: Capacitor/Motor Combo
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2007, 02:28:30 PM »
OK, I guess I was more referring to the power itself, not the motor.  Yes, it sounds like a servo or stepper motor (except that's not what he got).  DC power has just + and -, there aren't any phase angles to consider because there's no waveform.  It's either on or off, positive or negative.  A servo motor has phases, but it's driven by AC.  A stepper could be considered to have phases, but they're driven by DC pulse trains with specific relationships between the pulses that can control which direction the motor turns.  I'm digging myself in deeper.


I just Googled for Efka and found this post from you about them: http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/6/9/15340/10241


What you're measuring reminds me of some hard drive motors I've got that produce about 3 volts per phase, 3 amps short circuit current at 1500 RPM, internally wired in delta.  I wouldn't consider those a DC motor though, or anything else unless it can actually turn if you connect DC to it.  I wonder if the "DC 1600" could mean that the insulation can withstand 1600 volts DC?


Show me how you can connect up 3 phase DC to your motor and run it, and I'll believe you've got a 3 phase DC motor.  For that matter, explain what 3 phase DC is.  I give up.


  Alan

« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 02:28:30 PM by alancorey »

ghurd

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Re: Capacitor/Motor Combo
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2007, 04:36:02 PM »
Yup, NTL is right... Sort of?  You say `motor', he says `motor'.


Those Efkas and maybe ECMs (they could) run from DC, and they are 3-phase.

He didn't mention the controller (`brain' for ECMs).

The ECMs are 3-ph and designed to operate from single phase AC.

I don't remember for certain about the Efkas, but it seems like they operate completely with DC, the brain rectifies incoming AC to DC.


The brains are inside (integral) both motors so both would work connected to DC, one operates from DC, and both motors are wired 3-ph star.  

So, after a great deal of painful thought, I personally decided they ARE 3-ph DC.

G-

« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 04:36:02 PM by ghurd »
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nothing to lose

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Re: Capacitor/Motor Combo
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2007, 08:07:06 PM »
Thanks Ghurd,

You said that better than I could.


I think on the Efka's the seperate controll box sends DC to the motor as needed on 3 wires.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 08:07:06 PM by nothing to lose »

alancorey

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Re: Capacitor/Motor Combo
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2007, 09:12:46 AM »
All generalizations are false, including this one.

                -- Mark Twain
« Last Edit: March 27, 2007, 09:12:46 AM by alancorey »