Author Topic: blade question  (Read 1569 times)

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icicle

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blade question
« on: March 11, 2007, 04:09:54 AM »
I been reading on how to carve the blades for a while and would like to know what would happen if we cup out the bottom side. What I mean in stead of having a smooth bottom we dish or cup out lets say for ex. 1/2" up into the airfoil. It would be like having a built in flap causing more lift without the extra weight. So my question would be will it work or not?

« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 04:09:54 AM by (unknown) »

Phssthpok

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Re: blade question
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2007, 11:06:55 PM »
My guess would be airflow disruption on the bottom side resulting in added drag, and reduced lift. Now, 'dishing' the underside and then re-skinning it to return the flat profile my be an idea for reducing weight, but then you run into the problem of reducing strength as well, I'd think.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2007, 11:06:55 PM by Phssthpok »

Flux

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Re: blade question
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2007, 12:28:14 AM »
Yes you can do what you suggest. Many aerofoils have this extra camber.


Whether you see any improvement is another matter, high lift sections are much more fussy on shape so you will most likely have to take a good commercial section and make it accurately rather than just scoop out a bit from a flat bottomed one. Then added to that you will need to alter the angle of the blades to get the correct operating conditions.


If you copy a decent section, intended for low Reynolds number, set the blades at the right angle and match the load so that it runs at the intended tsr you should see some improvement.


If you just do things at random and you match the blades with resistance in the conventional way you will likely see no improvement and unless you are lucky it may be worse. Take it to extreme and you have the same as pvc pipe blades, which work tolerably well if just right but are not really that good.


Flux

« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 12:28:14 AM by Flux »

icicle

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Re: blade question
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2007, 03:52:29 AM »
Flux,


 If one is trying to make a set of blades for easy start up in very low wind speed like less than 7 m.p.h. would the extra chamber help. As I'm still in the designing phase. I all ready know my blades will be weak for strong winds I was going to make proto type one to really understand all the technical stuff. My blades were going to be out of 1x3x8. I really just wanted a conversation piece for my field and a couple white led lights


Cody

« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 03:52:29 AM by icicle »

Flux

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Re: blade question
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2007, 03:10:15 AM »
Start up depends as much on the generator as on the blades. If it is an air gap alternator you should start at very low winds, If it has iron in the active bit then start up may not be so easy.


Your extra camber on the blades will help start up especially if you use the usual angles. Best starting is obtained with low tsr rotors, with coarser angles and higher solidity ( more or wider blades)


From this, I suspect this is a small machine so don't expect more than a few mA at 7 mph and nothing below it. There just is so little power in low winds that even if you can supply the losses you are left with very little.


Flux

« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 03:10:15 AM by Flux »

finnsawyer

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Re: blade question
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2007, 08:22:50 AM »
Before you start adding camber I suggest you investigate the effect adding more twist would have on the performance of the blade.  There is a reason why the blades most people make give only 35% efficiency, and I don't believe that would be helped much by adding more camber.  At any point along the blade you need to strike a balance between lift and drag.  Drag robs power as do the tip vortices.  When a blade is too flat it will have a drastic drop in lift and a large relative increase in drag.  
« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 08:22:50 AM by finnsawyer »

finnsawyer

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Re: blade question
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2007, 09:00:16 AM »
I don't think it would add more drag, as the air slows down due to the camber on the bottom.  Slower moving air has more pressure (up), as well as less drag.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 09:00:16 AM by finnsawyer »

wdyasq

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Re: blade question
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2007, 09:02:55 AM »
Cody,


'Jacking' with airfoils is not for amatures. Professonals screw the things up often.


If you want to play with airfiols check out:


http://www.ae.uiuc.edu/m-selig/ads.html


That will get you a start on the complexity of the process. Or, you could pick a good, proven design and get most of the power pretty easily.


Ron

« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 09:02:55 AM by wdyasq »
"I like the Honey, but kill the bees"

vawtman

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Re: blade question
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2007, 11:19:18 AM »
Works nice for vawts not sure how it would benefit the other.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 11:19:18 AM by vawtman »

icicle

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Re: blade question
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2007, 01:50:16 PM »
doesn't pressure mean more power or torque?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 01:50:16 PM by icicle »

icicle

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Re: blade question
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2007, 07:12:10 PM »
thanks you for all the help for the links.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 07:12:10 PM by icicle »

finnsawyer

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Re: blade question
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2007, 08:01:36 AM »
It does, but the small gain comes at a cost, namely your time and a weaker blade.  My argument is that making the investment in a blade with the correct twist down to the root and proper management of drag is likely to give a greater increase in efficiency.  Can anyone demonstrate the actual benefit from using cambered blades?  I suspect to do that would require wind tunnel tests, which are beyond the scope of most users of this site.  I have not seen such data.  The situation is further complicated by the fact that a 10% increase in wind speed results in a 33% increase in available power, and it is virtually impossible to measure wind speeds accurately in the field.  So, again wind tunnel tests are required.


As far as the tip vortices are concerned, don't slough them off lightly.  I recently saw a few seconds of video on the tube showing a curtain of smoke moving downwards.  A model plane was dragged through it.  The result was two beautiful large vortices that slowly moved down with the smoke.  They seemed to extend halfway or more down the wing.  Unfortunately the whole thing happened quite quickly and no dimensions were given.  Well, it is well known that the tip vortices reduce lift in an airplane wing.  The vortices occur at or near the tip where everyone claims the greatest power output is achieved.  Well, maybe, in fact, the blade is really putting out maximum power from half its radius to three quarters of its radius.  I have suggested in the past that the way to ascertain the true effects of the tip vortices would be to test the windmill in a circular wind tunnel having a diameter only slightly greater than that of the windmill.


So, my advice has been and will continue to be that unless you have the knowledge and access to a wind tunnel, don't concern yourself with complications to blade design above what you see here.  A slight increase in wind speed will more than make up for any increase in efficiency.  

« Last Edit: March 12, 2007, 08:01:36 AM by finnsawyer »

finnsawyer

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Re: blade question
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2007, 07:23:48 AM »
Putting more twist on the blade toward the root would also help startup.  To get a feel for this take a board and hold it in a ten mph wind at various angles from zero to 45 degrees.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2007, 07:23:48 AM by finnsawyer »

icicle

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Re: blade question
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2007, 06:56:53 PM »
My blades are going to be very thin and skinny, I know they will not be the best in the world or the worst.

I'm making my blades from 1"x 3"x 8' fir

I need to go out and buy a couple of hand tool, like a hand plane and a sander.


I will start a new post maybe this weekend with pictures of my progress.


And I know what most of you will say. they are too skinny and too weak.

but Oh Well


This is why I wanted to camber them

« Last Edit: March 13, 2007, 06:56:53 PM by icicle »

icicle

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Re: blade question
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2007, 08:36:21 PM »
So I lied, I posted them tonight
« Last Edit: March 13, 2007, 08:36:21 PM by icicle »