Author Topic: Outer and Inner ring of Magnets  (Read 1783 times)

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harley1782000

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Outer and Inner ring of Magnets
« on: August 20, 2008, 12:36:19 AM »
Ok I was racking my brain last night and came up with this.  What would happen if you had an outter ring of magnets and a inner ring of magnets and the same would go for the coils.  So all together you would have 2 rings of magnets on one side and the same on the other.  For the coils, outter ring and a inner ring.  Is that even possiable to do.  Now I can see that it may be a bit big.  I am kind of thinking of trying this and see what happens.


I would love any input you guys would have.


Jim

« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 12:36:19 AM by (unknown) »

vawtman

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Re: Outer and Inner ring of Magnets
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2008, 07:28:30 PM »
Hi Jim

 Just wondering what advantage you expect to gain from this?Take your time and read up awhile.ITS FUN!


 I had many weird thoughts early also.Can you draw a pic of the creature?


 It takes time and more time.


 Mark

« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 07:28:30 PM by vawtman »

harley1782000

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Re: Outer and Inner ring of Magnets
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2008, 08:43:39 PM »
I will get on that and get it uploaded to show you what I mean.


Jim

« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 08:43:39 PM by harley1782000 »

Tritium

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Re: Outer and Inner ring of Magnets
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2008, 08:57:38 PM »
I think he is talking 2 alternators on one set of disk. Each alternator a different diameter. One placed near the maximum diameter (edge) of the disk and another nearer the hub.


Thurmond

« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 08:57:38 PM by Tritium »

KilroyOdin

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Re: Outer and Inner ring of Magnets
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2008, 10:57:41 AM »
Hi, if you constructed to metal backed coil plates and placed a rotating magnet plate in between them, you could double your output without increasing your magnet count.



« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 10:57:41 AM by KilroyOdin »

Flux

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Re: Outer and Inner ring of Magnets
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2008, 11:21:49 AM »
Make a nice eddy current brake.


Flux

« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 11:21:49 AM by Flux »

KilroyOdin

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Re: Outer and Inner ring of Magnets
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2008, 11:58:01 AM »
Hi, would it produce eddy currents if each coil plate had its own rectifier?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 11:58:01 AM by KilroyOdin »

Flux

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Re: Outer and Inner ring of Magnets
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2008, 12:54:56 PM »
Yes, the only way round it would be to use laminated components for the coil backing, not solid steel plate.


You could use tape wound toroidal cores but the cost would be far more than any saving in magnets.


If you could live with a fair bit of no load loss you could use rolls of crate banding strip or mild steel. Using poor iron in this type of alternator defeats most of the gain, it is nothing more than a double version of the single rotor design that was common a while ago. It would in fact be cheaper and better to mount he magnets on a steel disc and make it single rotor rather than have series air gaps and twice as much laminated core material.


Flux

« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 12:54:56 PM by Flux »

harley1782000

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Re: Outer and Inner ring of Magnets
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2008, 05:22:46 PM »
Yes to have basically two generators.  That way you could use the inner coils for slower winds and the outer coils for faster wind. Am I makeing any sence yet to what I am saying.


Jim

« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 05:22:46 PM by harley1782000 »

harley1782000

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Re: Outer and Inner ring of Magnets
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2008, 05:30:06 PM »
That is one way too I was thinking about too.  I was going to use a metal plate with the magnets cut out so they sat in the steel plate.  Then I was going too put the coils on plastic disc that where about 1/2 thick.


Jim

« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 05:30:06 PM by harley1782000 »

KilroyOdin

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Re: Outer and Inner ring of Magnets
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2008, 08:16:43 PM »
Hi Jim, it might be worth your time to checkout  http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/8/18/83321/8140

before you start your project. Great pictures. It seems a straight forward approach to the fabrication of the stator and magnetic plates

Best Regards and hope to view your finished project
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 08:16:43 PM by KilroyOdin »

KilroyOdin

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Re: Outer and Inner ring of Magnets
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2008, 08:27:45 PM »
Hi, no disrespect intented, but toroidal cores do not work.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 08:27:45 PM by KilroyOdin »

Flux

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Re: Outer and Inner ring of Magnets
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2008, 01:04:56 AM »
Yes what you say does make sense. There is always a case for two generators and equally true you can come up with reasons not to do it.


With axial alternators with modest size discs there is not a lot of space at the centre that you can really use when you allow for the stator requirements and the hub and fixings. The power you could get from the small space available would be quite limited.


It is true that in low winds you can get little anyway so if you use the centre bit for low wind operation it may work out reasonably well. It is also likely to be the case that using the small space available more effectively with slightly bigger magnets on the main winding would be more effective.


With all these 2 machine schemes you have the same problems as using two windings on one machine and the 2 winding scheme probably wins out. The low wind machine or winding will become inefficient in higher wind speeds and you will need to cut it out of circuit or tolerate dreadful losses if it doesn't burn out.


It can be done, it has been done and in fact I have tried it more than once. It comes into a similar category to star/delta or series parallel switching but has none of the advantages of either of them. With star/delta or series parallel you actually retain all the winding and rearrange it to suit your needs rather than have only a part winding under both conditions with your approach.


I am sure that there is a lot more that could be done with all these approaches and I find it strange that people cling to the one winding approach at all costs, it most likely comes down to simplicity in the end. All switching schemes involve some degree of complexity, even star delta is far from simple and few seem to have attempted it.


I got part way along this road several times and had quite reasonably working schemes but as you refine the switching arrangements you eventually reach a complexity that is not justified for the gain when less complicated switching in the form of a converter lends an infinitely better solution.


If you want to try I suggest you use bigger magnets rather than try the second alternator and use 2 windings on the main alternator. The low wind part need only take about 25% of the space. Use it for winds up to about 12 mph then ditch it and let the main winding cut in. Even with 25% of space wasted for the main winding the rise in cut in speed lets you use less turns of thicker wire and you still end up with a more efficient alternator capable of a much better match to the prop in higher winds. If you can devise a simple mosfet switch to disconnect the low speed winding then you are well on the way. If you get that far then you could consider keeping the low speed winding and use the mosfet as a buck converter to alter the voltage range and keep the winding matched into the higher wind speed range.


This could be quite good approach and I have done it on a test basis. If you can manage to keep the line resistance to the main alternator negligibly low it is an excellent scheme with a smaller and simpler buck converter than required for the whole machine.


If you use suitable fuses to isolate the converter if it fails it has the considerable merit that the machine will still perform satisfactorily well in most winds until you can deal with the converter.


I think it is all in my diary entry about "matching the load", probably I called it hybrid schemes.


I hope you can make something of the first bit of this reply even f you are lost on the last bit.


Flux

« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 01:04:56 AM by Flux »

harley1782000

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Re: Outer and Inner ring of Magnets
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2008, 11:46:36 AM »
I am so far understanding what you are saying.  I think I will go read your entries on "Matching the Load" and then go back and look at my design some more.  I am a person that allways seems to "Think out of the Box".  I will exhast every bit of resources before I will give up on trying to make something work.  Thanks for the input.  


Jim

« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 11:46:36 AM by harley1782000 »

wooferhound

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Re: Outer and Inner ring of Magnets
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2008, 02:19:30 PM »
actually that is half the normal magnet count, half the magnetic flux is half the power.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 02:19:30 PM by wooferhound »