Author Topic: Show me the Math?  (Read 2595 times)

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hamitduk

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Show me the Math?
« on: September 29, 2008, 08:59:11 PM »
Hi


I'm looking for any math for Wind generators, I really need (right now) wire gauge, wraps, and any thing else to build a wind generator.  Any good web sites, I'm looking forward to build from scratch. Cheap supplies?  Thanks


Hami

« Last Edit: September 29, 2008, 08:59:11 PM by (unknown) »

harley1782000

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Re: Show me the Math?
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2008, 05:01:07 PM »
Your on the best web site there is for wind turbines.


Jim

« Last Edit: September 29, 2008, 05:01:07 PM by harley1782000 »

jonas302

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Re: Show me the Math?
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2008, 05:10:05 PM »
check out the main web page www.otherpower.com lots more info and supplies to

use the google search on the right side to search for each term you will come up with lots of info I don't think its all in one spot anywhere

« Last Edit: September 29, 2008, 05:10:05 PM by jonas302 »

stop4stuff

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Re: Show me the Math?
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2008, 07:52:59 PM »
if its math you want, have a google for 'Flemings right hand rule' & start from there... or jump into hyperphysics http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html
« Last Edit: September 29, 2008, 07:52:59 PM by stop4stuff »

KilroyOdin

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Re: Show me the Math?
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2008, 09:09:18 PM »
Hi, http://www.6pie.com/faradayslaw.php is a good starting point. Best of luck.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2008, 09:09:18 PM by KilroyOdin »

Flux

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Re: Show me the Math?
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2008, 02:51:42 AM »
I am not sure what you want. I don't think from your comments that you want any basic maths and some of the links given are directed to basic fundamentals.


I think you are looking more at rules of thumb and you want to use the benefits of others experience. If I am right you will do far better reading all the information on Fieldlines and otherpower and also look at Hugh Piggot's site http://www.scoraigwind.com/


Also look at http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/default.asp


And Ed's Windstuffnow site.


If you want basic maths as you sort of asked for then you have a hard slog, you will need to plough through the aerodynamics bit of propellers and all the electrical theory of generators and then learn how they interact. You will be months or years away from calculating wire size and turns and the other factors you mentioned.


You might even buy one of Hugh Piggots books or the new one from the Dan's of this site if it is available yet.


Flux

« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 02:51:42 AM by Flux »

hamitduk

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Show me the Math? But send more!
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2008, 11:54:20 AM »
I will explain a little better, I'm going to make a Win Generator (Altenator, blade, control system) for my house and would like to design it all the way from start to finish.  But i need info, to start this project. So any/all info/URL's are welcome. I'm also looking for real cool ideas, lets chat.


Thank for all. But send MORE?

Hami

« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 11:54:20 AM by hamitduk »

SparWeb

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Re: Show me the Math?
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2008, 04:25:36 PM »
Best place to start:


http://www.fieldlines.com/special/google


As you read some, learn new terminology, do more searches, learn more... it dove-tails from there!

« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 04:25:36 PM by SparWeb »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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spinningmagnets

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Re: Show me the Math? But send more!
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2008, 08:30:15 PM »
You are so new hamitduk, I think you might not know what questions to ask...


Are you allowed to have a wind-gen tower at your location? if yes, how high can you afford/or are allowed? (higher is better, MUCH better)


Once you determine how high a tower you can have, What kind of wind do you have up there? It might be useful to data-log a rough wind profile, then some suggestions and comparisons to existing systems can be made.


What kind of voltage do you want? 12/24/or 48 are the most common. None are "best", each has benefits and drawbacks. What do you want to do with the wind-gen voltage? Most charge a large battery pack (with a dump load for when the pack is full) then put the battery power through an inverter to get 120 VAC to run TV's and lights.


Magnets come in different strengths, the stronger the better, but stronger is more expensive. The strength of the magnets will affect the rest of the design. The invisible magnetic field is a set shape, the copper wire coils must fill that shape, but no extra. (copper is expensive, and any extra coil wire length that is "unfluxed" adds resistance with no added generation)


Since the magnetic flux shape is fixed, more wraps of thinner wire will provide a higher voltage at a lower RPM. Fewer wraps of thicker wire will be the same size, but provide lower volts, but can handle higher current.


Some enthusiasts make the two magnet rotors, and then insert one prototype coil to test for their target volts as they spin the rotors at their sites wind-gen RPM's. Once the proper wire and wraps "for your site and system" is determined, you can proceed to finish the stator.


Do you want to generate more from lower winds, or the higher winds at your site. If you choose poorly, the generator might overheat, or generate less power than what was possible.


At what RPM/wind speed do you want the unit to "cut-in" and begin producing power, at what RPM/wind-speed do you want it to furl away so it doesn't overheat or fly apart from excessive RPM's?


Best of luck, and have fun!

« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 08:30:15 PM by spinningmagnets »

wooferhound

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Re: Show me the Math?
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2008, 10:54:50 PM »
This is a great .PDF file for understanding Wind Generator basics.

http://www.sparweb.ca/Forum/AXIAL_FLUX_HowItWorks.pdf

« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 10:54:50 PM by wooferhound »

hamitduk

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Show me the Newbie Math?
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2008, 03:08:44 AM »
Yup a Newbie, but i learn very fast, there is a lot of good info here, and it is going to take some time to filter it all in.  Thanks so far, I'm sure I will have many more Q's shortly. Currently I'm installing a off the shelf system so I can get the feel of the problems and joy's of wind and solar.


The answer to most the question, I have not decided yet, I'm still looking for info to make up my mind.  I'm currently in favor of 24vdc, I'm not in the states so yes to tower, a fire in your drive way is not uncommon way to dispose of trash, not many rules here.  But power here is not cheap, it is on a sliding scale, 100Kw could cost you $10US, but 1000KW is $400.


I currently have 48 N45's to play with, and more computing power, Data Acquisition, meters, scopes than I now what to do with (I know what to do with them).  


Some basic Questions


So the coil need to be the exact size of the magnet/field? No bigger, I have seen some home brews where they are larger, this is a waste of copper?


Isn't the field bigger than the magnet?


Is there a benefit/reason for the air gap between the Magnets?


Most Home brews have 12 independent coils (no overlap), What if there were say 24 with a 50% overlap?


These might seam like simple question, but I'm still learning how to walk here and need to be a little bottle feed.


Thanks again guys

« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 03:08:44 AM by hamitduk »

electrondady1

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Re: Show me the Newbie Math?
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2008, 06:51:02 AM »
left on it's own a magnet will form a flux field that is spherical.


by placing several mags on an iron disk the flux will attempt to go sideways to the adjoining magnets.

by placing two such disks close together the flux is forced to travel across

the air gap


all we are doing here is manipulating the path and shape of the flux in order to increase it's density and allow us to harvest it's power .


the hole in the coil should be the same size as the magnet.


mag spacing is the term used to describe the area between magnets on a single disk


it is usually the same width as the magnet.


it is required to avoid  cancellation

« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 06:51:02 AM by electrondady1 »

Airstream

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Re: Show me the Math?
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2008, 08:15:44 AM »
Although tedious for some (get over it) this forums 'User Info" and search function are your best friend here:


Find a user name and click through to browse the "Stories Posted by" and "Comments posted by" and the "Diary" sections - reading back two or three years for solid fellows like Flux, DanB or Windstuffnow and studying the projects, the questions asked on those projects and the hundreds of repeating questions answered over the years will bring a lot of tangents together - keep an open mind and look for the connections...


Then google search the keywords of things not understood and repeat. There is only about a Winters' worth of evening reading in the achieves!! :)

« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 08:15:44 AM by Airstream »

hamitduk

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Found Pic in your files
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2008, 06:15:00 PM »
F


I found a few Pic's in your files and wondered how they worked out; Guyrotor, Guy2st, and BigS.  They were overlapping coils, how did this work out?


Hami

« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 06:15:00 PM by hamitduk »

Flux

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Re: Show me the Newbie Math?
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2008, 09:21:28 AM »
As I thought originally you are not looking to basics, you are looking at the common compromises and rules of thumb.


You will find none of this information at basic level, commercial engineering doesn't use this type of alternator and there is virtually no basic data on it. The early work was done by Ferranti, Mordey, siemens and a few others but not with permanent magnets.


The idea lay dormant for about 100 years until magnet technology caught up. Virtually everything you find will be empirical and most of it will be on this site and those few others I and others have pointed you to.


There is no absolute criteria on coil size in relation to magnets or magnet spacing or anything else it is all a compromise. The thing you will learn if you succeed is that volts don't equate to power out and some things that compromise volts actually result in lower winding resistance and give other benefits.


It's all here somewhere the good ( and unfortunately the nonsense).


If you want to start from basic maths then consider the power you need, the wind you have available. There are equations for energy in the wind and it is fairly well documented as to what fraction you can get ( try klemen's site if I didn't link it before). when you know what you need and have available then you are in a better position to worry about things like coil shape and magnet size.


Remember that the thing that best defines a wind turbine is it's swept area, the other things are peripheral and only have a small effect.


Flux

« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 09:21:28 AM by Flux »

SparWeb

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Re: Show me the Math?
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2008, 01:04:09 PM »
Hamitduk,

If you find this (old threads tend to disappear) I want to suggest that you play around with FEMM, if you want to try to see "inside" the axial flux alternators.


http://femm.foster-miller.net/wiki/HomePage


I've used it to understand what's going on in axial machines and in motor conversions.

« Last Edit: October 17, 2008, 01:04:09 PM by SparWeb »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca