Author Topic: Inverter Basics  (Read 1899 times)

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DBGenerator

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Inverter Basics
« on: October 15, 2008, 12:41:08 AM »
Sorry to ask such basic questions, but I've read hundreds of post and have a subuscription to the magazine and everything, but.  Basically, an inverter has a 12V, 24V or 48V DC input that converts to a 120V AC output or 240V AC outpout.  A "Grid Tie" inverter connects your PV (Photovoltaic Cells) or your wind generator to your existing power coming in from your electrical company?


My basic question is, does the "Grid Tie" inverter, then use the power from your solar or wind when it is available, and when it is not available, uses power from the grid or your local power company (PECO)?

Do you HAVE to have a battery bank hooked up to your solar or wind?

Can I start with buying a 1000Watt solar pannel and a 2000 Watt inverter and then get an electrician to connect the output of the inverter to parallel into the breaker panel where the local power company comes in?

Sorry to ask such basic questions, but I called the electric company (PECO) and they couldn't answer.  All they did was refer me to some company that wanted to "Engineer" a renewable energy system for ten of thousands of dollars.


Thanks, Dave  

« Last Edit: October 15, 2008, 12:41:08 AM by (unknown) »

TomW

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Re: Inverter Basics
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2008, 07:35:22 PM »
Dave;




Sorry ...and have a subuscription to the magazine and everything, but.


Uh, which magazine is that?


you might be well served to go over to http://outbackpower.com/products/sinewave_inverter/grid_tie/ and read a bit of their literature on inverters. They sell them and have a good bit of information that will likely answer questions you don't know you have yet. Seriously.


For what you think of as "Grid Tie" they call "Grid Interactive"


Tom

« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 07:35:22 PM by TomW »

electronbaby

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Re: Inverter Basics
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2008, 07:40:05 PM »
Sorry to tell you this, but designing or engineering a system is probably better left up to professionals if you, basically,  have no idea how an inverter works.


An inverter basically takes a DC and (for simplicity) chops it up into little bits. It then it takes those little pieces and (through some waveform processing) amplifies the voltage and reassembles the waveform to look like AC at a certain voltage. The output waveform then is considered AC. If you are talking about a cheapo inverter, it probably is modified sine wave output, and this is the least favorable waveform, but for all practical purposes, will usually work fine for most resistive loads and a few others. These will not be able to grid tie.


The next step up in waveform quality, is a true sine wave inverter. These are usually more expensive, and will power most loads fine. For a battery based sine wave inverter, the only thing you have to worry about is the start up current of inductive loads. You have to make sure your inverter and wiring is sized appropriately.


Battery based inverters work with low voltage DC and invert it to high voltage AC at a lower current. These are usually less efficient that grid tied inverters in two ways.

First, the overall voltage differential is greater, so there is more internal transformer loss during the conversion process.

Second, you have the battery efficiency to deal with, so the power put in by the PV, will always be less than the inverter output because of the losses inherent with the chemical storage medium.


Grid tie inverters work most efficiently. The DC on the input is usually kept higher than the output voltage. This creates less of a differential, and therefore an easier conversion by means of switching power supplies which have higher conversion efficiencies because the current is kept to a minimum. If you understand ohms law and the fact that voltage and current are inversely proportional, this will make sense.


A grid tie inverter will feed your service panel in parallel. It will sync its frequency and voltage to the utility standard and back feed your service panel in a way that attempts to raise the voltage slightly. If it can do this, then the current will rise and it will push power back onto the grid to then be sold to your neighbors at the retail rate, unless of course you are using power in your own home that is of greater wattage than the inverter is providing. Then the power would be used in your own home. This is all done automatically.


You do not have to have a battery bank hooked up to use a grid tie inverter, BUT they do make versions of grid tie inverters that have battery back up. They also are usually slightly less efficient however, but if you need the backup, then you have to deal with it.


You can certainly buy 1000w of PV and hook it up to a 2000w inverter. This will allow you some room to add on to the system in the future. HOWEVER, you need to make sure that the PV strings are sized appropriately for the inverter you decide to use (they are all different). There are MANY different PV modules also, and you need to select your components properly also or you could be very disappointed in the performance of the system. Make sure the service panel can handle the increased current that might be provided by the inverter and that your panel buss bars are sized appropriately.


All of these things I mentioned (among many others) will probably be covered by the contractor the utility company has referred you to. If it is done professionally, it usually isnt cheap.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 07:40:05 PM by electronbaby »
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kurt

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Re: Inverter Basics
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2008, 12:20:16 PM »
you forgot to add that to connect a grid tie inverter to your breaker panel you need permission and a permit from the utility company and an inspection of the work and the connection usually has to be done by a licensed electrician in order to get the permit. if they catch you back feeding the grid with a grid tie inverter without the proper permit they will hit you with a huge fine and disconnect your electricity until you prove the inverter is disconnected and you pay the fine and the reconnect fees.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2008, 12:20:16 PM by kurt »

electronbaby

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Re: Inverter Basics
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2008, 04:47:26 PM »
Yes, you are correct Kurt. Some jurisdictions allow the homeowner to do their own install granted that they have it inspected by an underwriter and the utility. You most certainly need permission. It does not need to be all that expensive to accomplish, but every utility is different.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2008, 04:47:26 PM by electronbaby »
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DBGenerator

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Re: Inverter Basics
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2008, 05:06:57 PM »
Tom... The home power magazine.  A good source to find out what kind of different companies and products are out there and available.  I'll take your advice to look at the manufactures specifications on the products.  That seems to be the most reliable.  The reason I asked the basic question, that you answered, is becuase there are a lot of acronyms, abbreviations, and vauge terminology used on this board.  As you mentioned, a grid tie or grid interactive inverter is a term that is used differently.


Electron baby...Don't be sorry.  I have an really, really good idea how inverters work.  My question was more about the terminology used.  The output is more like modulated DC.

I don't pay someone else to do things that I can do or I can do for less money.  There are definately times when it's cheaper, smarter, and faster to pay someone else to do something.  I think I got basic electricity under control!  No offense taken.

My reference to 1000W of PV and 2000W inverter was kind of a "for example".  I noticed there are a serveral companies out there.  Kyocera, BP, Evergreen, and GE manufacture panels.  Outback and Xantrex seem to be the big names in inverters with a lot of different models and options.


Kurt...I talked to at least 4 different engineers from the local electric company.  The only answer I got was "We're not really concerned with that.  We have enough safety precautions in place to make sure our workers don't get hurt."  Seriously, that is the last answer I got.  I'll make sure I ask someone else and get a proper permit.  I don't plan on playing with HOT 240Volts / 200 amp service.  Is there anyone on this board that is from south eastern Pennsylvania??


Thanks all.  There are a couple of different options that I am considering along with how much money to I want to invest from the start.  I didn't realize until AFTER I posted the question and it was moved to the "newbies" section that there was a "newbies" section and what was in there.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2008, 05:06:57 PM by DBGenerator »