Author Topic: cogging  (Read 1193 times)

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imsmooth

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cogging
« on: November 25, 2008, 02:46:40 PM »
When I redesigned my F&P I had neos made in china that were skewed to reduce cogging.  THey were also arced to fit perfectly into the rotor.  I just guessed on a skew angle based on what I saw on some motors.  If I were to design one from scratch, what is needed to ensure no cogging when I spin the shaft?  Is there a critical skew angle, or do the iron teeth have to perfectly match the arc of the magnets?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 02:46:40 PM by (unknown) »

ghurd

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Re: cogging
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2008, 08:29:04 AM »
Peter 'Dinges' wrote up some good info.

I think he posted a few stories too.


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/5/31/212633/814


G-

« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 08:29:04 AM by ghurd »
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Flux

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Re: cogging
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2008, 08:35:12 AM »
Yes there is a theoretical skew angle but from my experience at best it will give you a fairly reduced cog. My findings are that the angle is extremely critical and not quite the theoretical value for zero cog.


The magnetic field of the magnets is not perfectly sharp and defined and the iron teeth have some issues with saturation so If you use the theory it will probably be good enough but I doubt that it will be cog free.


Flux

« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 08:35:12 AM by Flux »

imsmooth

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Re: cogging
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2008, 10:10:12 AM »
Interesting.  I did some measurements a while ago.  Using a DC motor, I measured how much voltage I needed to start rotation with and without rounded iron cores, and with and without the neo magnets.


Using the ceramic magnets I found that rounding the iron cores reduced the startup voltage from 10v to about 6v.  Remember, these values are relative, and may not be the true voltages required, but were the numbers read from my variac.  I replaced the ceramics with skewed neos.  I did not have non-skewed neos, but I figured with the added magnetic strength the cogging would go up by using them.  The skewed neos had a startup voltage of 5.5-6v.  I slanted them at 11 degrees.  The cogging felt significantly reduced by rotating with my hand.

« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 10:10:12 AM by imsmooth »

Flux

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Re: cogging
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2008, 10:56:43 AM »
Cogging takes place when the iron circuit has a variable reluctance that aligns with the magnet.


The worst cog occurs with teeth the size and shape of the magnet and the number of magnets and teeth are the same.


One trick is to use a non integer for the number of teeth so that only one tooth is at maximum cog at any instant. With a bit of luck you can make the average cog torque round the circle zero.


With tooth numbers equal to magnet number or an integer you can avoid cog by spacing the magnets such that you get the same effect as the non integer tooth situation. The magnet spacing ends up with a gap equal to a tooth width or thereabouts.


Skewing works by making the leading edge of a tooth come to one end of the magnet while the trailing edge comes to the other so that the tooth is pulled one way at one end and the other way at the other, the net pull is zero.


Anything that makes the attraction ill defined will reduce the effect and that includes rounding poles or magnets but the thing probably can't be analysed and comes to trial and error and you may not get a perfect result.


The skewing and asymmetric magnet spacing can in theory be calculated such that the angle gives you the condition where the magnet ends line up to opposite sides of the tooth. The angle depends on magnet and tooth geometry but you can consider it as the equivalent of designing a helical gear that transfers torque from one tooth to the next smoothly.


I think Peter " Dinges" has done the calculations for the ideal case for induction conversions. For things like the F & P there are more problems as the angle needs to be large to deal with short magnets and wide tooth spacing. These angles need to be for the circular arc not actual skew of the pole or magnet face angle as that will depend on core and magnet length.


Probably if you use the theoretical angle it will be fairly good and a bit of rounding here and there would make it less critical.


Flux

« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 10:56:43 AM by Flux »

ncblue

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Re: cogging
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2008, 09:18:28 PM »
when mounting the magnets, for each pole, were the magnets all mounted with thier polarity in the same direction or were they mounted alternately to the magnet next to it.


before i commit and find out i mounted half of them wrong, i'd like to be sure.


thanks

« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 09:18:28 PM by ncblue »