Author Topic: Questions about parasitic currents in 12V, single rotor machines  (Read 2679 times)

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Beaufort

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Questions about parasitic currents in 12V, single rotor machines
« on: February 02, 2010, 09:39:34 AM »
I just finished up some extensive testing on a 4 ft. dia, 12V, single rotor axial machine and am left with some general questions about how important the magnet/coil relationship can be for these machines:


1)    If the hole in the coils is smaller than the width of the magnets, does this lead to significant fighting currents when passing over the hole? (see picture below).  It seems like the induced current is going in opposite directions and eats up input power.

http://www.fieldlines.com/images/scimages/11755/Mag_sweep.jpg ">


2)    For a single rotor machine, how important is a thicker coil to parasitic currents?  For example, I wound a ½" thick coil versus a 3/8" one used in most of the book machines.  It seems like the coil wires further away from the magnets see significantly less flux compared to the ones next to the magnets, and could cause problems.


My test results for a 12-magnet/9-coil machine shows about 55W wasted at 650 RPM when the stator has coils in it versus 14W with no coils at all.  This and some other tests indicate I have circulating currents within the coils.  


The scary thing is that the output electrical power matches a theoretical curve almost perfectly, but under a prony brake the efficiency is about 35%.  I even did Jerry rig and also rectified each coil, but efficiency didn't go above 38% or so.  Output power in Delta does not match theoretical at all, indicating circulating currents are the culprit.


I'm rewinding some new thinner coils and opening up the middle, but it would be good to hear from those with more experience as to the significance of #1 versus #2.

« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 09:39:34 AM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: Quesr machines
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2010, 02:34:59 PM »
No this concept of fighting currents and wasted power is not right.


If the geometry is not ideal, all you do is generate less volts. For the same load you therefore produce less power. It is not a loss in the sense that you mean, you don't produce it and therefore it doesn't come from increased input power as a loss would.


In any machine without slots you will only get the perfect theoretical result with a coil with a single wire, once you start to produce a normal coil with parallel wires ( finite leg width) you can't link all the flux instantaneously. What you end up with is a distributed winding where you progressively link the flux. The peak of the emf is lower but the turns are still contributing at different times.


Far better to think of flux linkage than worry about legs and things fighting ( if you must worry about that it is the voltage that fights not current).


If the hole in the coil is bigger than the magnet you will link all the flux at some point in the cycle but not instantaneously unless the coil has sides only one wire wide. If the hole is smaller than the magnet then not all turns see the full flux linkage but you still gain some volts. What matters to the output you get is volts per unit resistance. If you do something that increases volts without increasing resistance you gain. With these turns inside the hole dimension of the coil you don't gain your full amount of volts but these are very short turns and add little in the way of resistance so you come out better as long as you don't go crazy. Turns of negligible area will link little flux so there comes a time when you start loosing.


Similarly on a single rotor you are right, the flux doesn't link much of the back part of a thick coil. Within reason using thicker coils gives you more room for thicker wire ( low resistance) but beyond a certain thickness the volts induced in the back turns becomes too low and you are adding resistance and you loose out.


For a single rotor the best may be with coils about one magnet thickness, certainly thicker is likely not to be any improvement, thinner may actually be better. The thing that is critical in a single rotor is the distance from the magnet to the coil face ( don't confuse this with air gap). There is no defined air gap with a single

rotor, the longest flux path is via infinity and the shortest is the near point between points of opposite polarity on the magnet.


If you have losses with your winding it will not be from what you describe, but it can happen if you parallel circuits with any voltage difference. Parallel coils are problematic, delta circuits will definitely produce loss from harmonic circulation.


You say you have delta and yes it will suffer circulating losses and more so once you rectify and increase harmonic content. Don't forget that you will have winding resistance and this will drop your efficiency even without circulating losses. If your machine is something based on Hugh's 4 ft machine I would expect your efficiency from resistance loss to be down round 50% at something like 200W out. Delta will make it far worse. Jerry connection should prevent circulating currents below cut in but they come back when the rectifiers conduct and show as loss just as in delta.


If you have drag or losses with open circuit coils or star connection you have eddy losses from wire that is too thick or shorted turns. I don't have enough details of your winding or enough information to understand why you think you have these losses to comment further.


Flux

« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 02:34:59 PM by Flux »

Beaufort

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Re: Quesr machines
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2010, 06:34:31 PM »
Thanks for taking the time to describe flux linking; I haven't run across that concept described in this way but it makes sense.  I think you hit on my problem in your last paragraph..wire too thick.  I'm stuffing 14 AWG into something that should probably be 16 AWG and a thinner stator.  Ironic that I did this to get lower resistance, heating, etc. but it turns out to be a killer.  I'll probably go back and measure the alternator  with individual coils pulled out to see if a short is in there, but I doubt it.


So how closely do you see electrical output and efficiency match "first principles" theoretical on the "standard" designs?  There has got to be some eddy losses that grow  with amps; is there some rule-of-thumb to account for this, or is it splitting hairs on a well-designed machine?

« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 06:34:31 PM by Beaufort »

Flux

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Re: Quesr machines
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2010, 12:39:58 AM »
I would expect you to get some eddy loss with #14 wire but not to that extent. It seems from your description as though you have this loss with no load, in which case if there is no closed coil connections ( delta or parallel coils) I suspect you have shorted turns somewhere and removing the rogue coil should cure it.


Probably wire thicker than #11 is going to bring you into the bad eddy region, but many are using #14 wire ok.


With these air gap alternators there is no iron loss and if you use normal size wire the eddy loss is very small so you are looking at resistance to determine your efficiency.


If you load it as a conventional machine for any other purpose you should be looking at efficiencies in the over 80% region and if you don't use rectifier loads it out to be up into the 90% region.


Now bear in mind that using it for wind you will be changing the loading conditions and you are clamping it to a fixed voltage so the efficiency will fall as the speed increases. To keep the prop out of the bad stall region you need to let the speer rise with wind speed. You won't manage the ideal where volts track wind speed but you will be looking at something like doubling wind speed from cut in to 30mph.


This implies letting the efficiency fall to something like 50% at full load and this is caused by the resistance.


This matching could be done with a very large and costly alternator and an external resistor but you get a cheaper and more viable commercial solution by building a less powerful alternator and using the internal loss for the load matching. The power duty cycle of wind is not high so you can run at that level of efficiency and still dissipate the heat. If you drop much below 40% efficiency you start to have heating problems in high sustained wind.


These alternators are sized to give this level of efficiency so if you do something to raise it very much you will loose performance on a wind generator unless you introduce the loss externally and get the prop back up on its power curve.


At present I suspect you are measuring power in on no load, you ought to have negligible losses at this point and if you are loosing 650watts of mechanical input there is a serious problem. Normally the biggest single power loss on these alternators on no load is bearing friction and grease drag, the eddy loss is usually the lower of these.


Single rotors have a lot of stray leakage flux around so make absolutely sure this is not causing eddies on surrounding metalwork but if it was ok with no coils then this shouldn't be an issue. Remove each coil in turn until you find the cause or keep it under power for a few minutes, with 650W loss something will get hot.

Flux

« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 12:39:58 AM by Flux »

Beaufort

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Re: Quesr machines
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2010, 06:43:27 AM »
Actually, it was only 55W wasted at 650 RPM versus 14W without coils...not 650W.  But it's the electrical efficiency under battery load at all speeds that was very poor.


I just held up all my coils to the face of the spinning rotor (which can be done on a single rotor machine) and it seems there is something going on there.  I can feel some amount of coupling and grabbing on each one as they get within about 1/4" of the spinning magnet faces at 600 RPM.  All of them do this.  


I wound a test coil of 16 AWG, 67 turns, and under 0.4" thick with the bottom of the wedge hole opened up in the middle to match the magnet dia (1").  Spinning it up through a rectifier, it gives 6.7% higher DC volts/RPM compared to the old coil, and 37% higher power output when it's going through a small heater load.  Efficiency is tough to measure with a single coil, so I'll have to wind the rest to see if this works.  Holding up this coil to the spinning rotor grabs less than the old coil, so there is something different.  The variables that changed here are wire thickness, coil shape, coil thickness, and to some extent the outside dimensions are smaller than the old coil.  


I'll post the results.

« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 06:43:27 AM by Beaufort »

Flux

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Re: Quesr machines
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2010, 07:48:04 AM »
Sorry I got the speed mixed up with the loss figure.


The only drag on an open circuit coil will be from eddy loss so the #14 wire must nearing the practical limit.


If you are using round magnets you would be better off with round coils but see how it works out anyway.


Flux

« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 07:48:04 AM by Flux »

Beaufort

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Re: Questions about parasitic currents in 12V, sin
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2010, 12:17:31 PM »
The re-designed coils show a higher V/RPM in open circuit, but about the same efficiency.  I think my battery was charged too much during these tests; I discharged it a few tenths of a volt and efficiency looked to improve slightly.  Would this make sense?  Anyway, I'm heating water to get it down more and will re-do the tests and report back.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 12:17:31 PM by Beaufort »

Flux

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Re: Questions about parasitic currents in 12V, sin
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2010, 12:59:54 AM »
Normally battery voltage moves the cut in speed and characteristics about but it wouldn't significantly effect efficiency over the normal voltage variation of a battery.


I have no idea how you are claiming to measure efficiency so I can't comment.


Flux

« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 12:59:54 AM by Flux »

ghurd

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Re: Questions about parasitic currents in 12V, sin
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2010, 05:01:26 AM »
By efficiency, do you mean output watts at a given RPM?

That's all I can think of with the 35% Star and 38% Jerry numbers.

I have no idea how a prony brake would give those numbers, with multiple RPMs from 6 to 20MPH.


Regular Jerry Rig (individually rectified phases) efficiency should increase dramatically with the same PMA, but it needs higher RPM to make the same output.


My simplified understanding is-

Star wasted watts in the coils = Iout^2 x 2 x phase ohms.

Jerry wasted watts in the coils = (Iout/3)^2 x 3 x phase ohms.

At 10A output with 1 ohm per phase,

Star wastes 200W.  (10^2)x2x1

Jerry wastes 33.3W. (3.33^2)x3x1

The ohms per phase obviously changes for a stator designed to operate either in Star or Jerry, but it sounds like you are using the same stator?  Then the 35 and 38% numbers should fall into a very narrow RPM window.


"The re-designed coils show a higher V/RPM in open circuit, but about the same efficiency."

and

"a 4 ft. dia, 12V, single rotor axial machine"

Then it makes sense to me the new coils should have less turns of larger wire, or the old coils did not have enough turns.


A few tenths of a volt in the battery should not make much difference.


G-

« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 05:01:26 AM by ghurd »
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Beaufort

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Re: Questions about parasitic currents in 12V, sin
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2010, 08:29:50 AM »
Sorry about all the confusion here; it started out being some conceptual questions that Flux answered and now I'm really questioning my test setup.  I've got an arm attached to my stator (which is free to pivot on a center bearing).  This arm presses down on a digital scale about 9 inches from the center, so given a certain RPM and torque that gives input power:


Power (kW) = Torque(Newton-Meters) * RPM/5252


.  Output power is measured as amps flowing into a deep cycle 100 Ah battery and measuring the voltage.  P = IV.


So an example of a data point would be measuring RPM (with a photo-tachometer) at 300 RPM, observing the scale reading (1380 grams), recording the battery voltage with a Fluke DMM (11.91 VDC), and measuring the current with a pretty expensive true RMS clamp meter (4.9 A).  Oh and given a single rotor machine, the clamp meter has to be kept away from the spinning plate with magnets.


So here is the input power:


Convert 9 inches to 0.2286 meters

Convert 1380 grams to 13.5332 Newtons


Power (kW)=(0.2286 * 13.5332 * 300)5252

Power (kW) = .177 kW

Power (W) = 177 W


Output power is simply 4.9A * 11.91 VDC = 58 W


Eff% = 58/177 = 33%


There is some variation due to vibration in the scale reading (+
-20 grams) and I can verify the relative torque on it by lifting the lever arm when it's running.  But pretty much all the runs are down under 40%.


This project was trying to use up a big batch of 1" dia x 1/2" thick magnets, so I've got two of them together per pole.  The coil picture just shows one magnet for illustration clarity.  So 12 pairs of these magnets are on a single rotor, and the current stator has 67T of 16 AWG, 0.4" thick wedge coils.  


I don't know where I went wrong here (like not following a book design), but I don't see any reason why this arrangement shouldn't work better.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 08:29:50 AM by Beaufort »

Jerry

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Re: Questions about parasitic currents in 12V, sin
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2010, 12:32:56 PM »
I think this discusion may also want us to revisit the topic of coil shape VS magnet shape?


My 4ft Hugh Piggot alt was by the book. 1"X2"X1/2" magnets with the Hugh sugjested coil dimentions.


My diviations was coil wire ga. I used wire of half the circular mills. However I wound the coils 2 in hand.


This gave the ability to wire the stator stock star or Jerry rigged.


The preformance was slightly better JR.


Jerry

« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 12:32:56 PM by Jerry »

Flux

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Re: Questions about parasitic currents in 12V, sin
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2010, 02:03:20 PM »
Ok this seems fine, you are actually measuring things as it should be done, mechanical power in and electrical power out.


I am not sure about your current measurement, the battery current needed for this is mean. I really don't know what a true rms clamp meter reads on dc. This is made more complicated as you say by having the field of the single rotor inducing things into the meter prongs.


It would be a good idea to check with a normal mean reading dc ammeter such as a moving coil with shunt or a normal mean reading digital millivoltmeter with shunt.


I would expect your true rms meter to be reading ripple and consequently I would have expected it to read high, giving a higher than correct efficiency, not low as you are finding.


I have just tried calculating your input power by converting your figures to my ancient units and unless I have made a mistake I come up with 97W in not your 177 so perhaps you should check that constant in your formula. I am inclined to think this may be where the trouble lies. At this stage I would check that before we start to decide on your coil resistances and other things. I can never cope with these numbers that come out of thin air.


Flux

« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 02:03:20 PM by Flux »

Beaufort

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Re: Questions about parasitic currents in 12V, sin
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2010, 09:17:50 PM »
You are correct that the power formula is wrong..I used the wrong units (it's HP for power and lb-ft for torque).  97W is correct.  Here is a good site that shows the derivation of the formula:


http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/power_and_torque.htm


So that gives about 60% efficiency at 300 RPM.  I'll take a range of amp readings with the DMM to compare.  I've decided to move away from this particular configuration of magnets for this project, but I'd like to publish the power curves here anyway for future reference.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 09:17:50 PM by Beaufort »

Beaufort

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Re: Questions about parasitic currents in 12V, sin
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2010, 05:45:02 PM »
I posted the entire test results over at my Diary.  Thanks to everyone for all the insight!


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2010/2/6/17436/71085

« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 05:45:02 PM by Beaufort »