hydrogen question

[(unknown)]

Hi,

I wonder if anyone knows the answer to this question.  I produced some hydrogen, it was great!  I have been wondering about something ever since, and that is if you can continue the wire past the graphite or whatever electrodes you are using to create electrolisis and still charge a battery or feed the grid.  I had a brief moment to test this today and it appeared that the volt meter showed the same reading after the graphite connections as they at the connections.  It is also appears to make just as much hydrogen.  I could be reading something wrong, I am new to all this and do not know all the math etc.  I also only had a brief moment to test this.  I will be doing further testing soon, but I am curious if anyone else has had any experience with this. I hope this makes sense.  

Thanks,

JCSwaim

[electrondady1]

its a facinating subject.

could it be that your meter could not read a very small voltge drop as the cell had too small a resistance?

perhaps the hydrogen cell is acting like a capacitor!

careful of any sparks!!

[jcswaim]

I am not sure, I did a retest this morning.  And it was producing the hydrogen just fine and still had what appears to be the same voltage after the electrolisis process.  I am only using a small solar panel, I probably need to test on a larger scale.  I cannot find any information about similar test results.  Surely, others have tried this.  If not it would be great if it works like it appears to be.  I was wondering if someone could test this, that has better equip. and knowledge than I have?

Here is my set up, I have a small 6 x 6 solar panel, a positive and negative connection running into salty water with graphite as the, I guess you would call them electrodes.  I have the solar panel attached to one end of a copper wire and the graphite in the middle, the wire continues out of the water and I hook the voltmeter to the end of the wire.

[phillipq266]

I have done a lot of work on hho iam stilling working on seting up a larger system for myself first thing i would say is dump the salt its like acid it will eat things up fast and your solution will become dirty not to metion salt will produce posion gas witch is verey harmfull.

I use Baking soda it works mutch better and is mutch cleaner not to metion it will make a lot more hho gas and i do men a lot more i started withm salt and quickly changedn as far as your testing goes i can not help sorry all i can stay is keep testing loging what you get so you have a refernce for later on thats the way i do.

 myself iam using stanless steal plates in 3 gal tap water with only 1 table spoon of backing soda and it works verey well.  

[jcswaim]

thanks for the tips.  I will try it.  Question, do you use the hydrogen to power anything?  If so how do  you store it, and power the generator?

[Tink]

Baking soda is also not the thing to use! It also creates toxic fumes and residue. The best thing to use is KOH (Potassium Hydroxide) available at:

http://www.aaa-chemicals.com

For a lot of great info on this subject goto:

http://www.hydroxyhut.com/

Tink

[REdiculous]

This quick drawing is based on a design I've seen used for storing methane (biogas)...

The outer tank is filled with water. The storage tank doesn't have a bottom; it's basically an upside down cup. The tie-downs keep the storage tank from shooting out of the water. HTH.

[Ekij]

Yes you can create H2 and charge a battery or feed the grid but you can't create energy from nothing. Any energy being used to create H2 is not going to the battery or grid.

H2 is a very inefficient way to store energy compared (create H2 and combust H2 in an engine to spin an alternator to produce electricity is only about 10% efficient)

[tanner0441]

Hi

If you hydrolise water you will get hydrogen from one electrode and oxygen from the other, storing large amounts of hydrogen in a low pressure tank which could have the chance of letting air in or leaking could have the potential to go bang.

If the gasses are not seperated then you are storing hydrogen and oxygen together, the potential is to make a bigger bang.

As a key to how much you will need to run an engine, look at propane, liquid propane will expand 700 times before it can be fed to an engine, it then mixes with between 14 and 17 to 1 with air to make an explosive mixture. One pound of liquid propane has approx 19,500 BTUs per pound.

Depending on the engine one pound of propane will take a car around 1 to 7 miles...

I used to make hydrogen as a kid to fill balloons which we then sent off with a burning fuse attached, I am surprised my eyebrows ever re grew. Good fun be be careful.

Brian.

 

[Bruce S]

The readings you are getting with this setup is correct.

Aside from the small amount of voltage 1.28Vdc if memory is working right today:).

It is the current draw that begins the electrolysis once the voltage is up.

This is the reason you're seeing the voltage stay the same, if you were to hook a meter up in current draw you would see differences.

tecker  is light years ahead of me on making HHO, you might have a look over in the DC generator discussion, OR drop him a line.

HHO is great for on-demand usage, dangerous to store.

H2 can be hard to store, the MOLE size is (1) so it'll pretty much pass right through ALL storage tanks sooner than later.

Hope this helps'

Bruce S

[Bruce S]

RE;

  This setup remains one of the simplest and most durable for methane.

Simple, expandable and with a little more; adds pressure to the gas delivery system.

Unfortunately, this will not work for H2, the H2 will merely bubble in the water at best.

H2 is so small in MOLE size it'll pass through the tanks as well.

On the lower end of your drawing, the in-flux pipe should be at an angle, so incoming "stuff" has a chance to help with the stirring of the mix, unless this is the holding tank only then this is a nice setup.

Cheers;

Bruce S

 

[REdiculous]

"Depending on the engine one pound of propane will take a car around 1 to 7 miles..."

My car is 120HP. Lets say I get 5 minutes out of a pound of propane at full throttle. If I did the math right (round up to 90kw, divide by 12 to make an hour), that's 7.45kwh. We use up to 24kwh a day in the worst months so if we say 1lb=6kwh then 4lbs a day would supply our home.

But what does it take to produce 1lb of hydrogen? I know it takes more energy to make the hydrogen than you can get back out, that's not what I'm asking. I haven't messed with this very much at all so I'm curious what kind of materials and setup would be required...

If 4lbs a day was my goal, what's my system gonna look like?

[REdiculous]

I know the hydrogen will eventually escape no matter what...how fast? I'm sure that pressurizing it only makes it worse.

Why would the H2 only bubble in the water? Wouldn't it rise and get "trapped" in the storage tank like methane does? I was assuming this would get used in a system that was producing a fair amount of gas, otherwise there's no reason to try to storing it....would greater volume fix the "merely bubble" issue?

It is just a drawing of the storage system, the digester (/gas supply) would be separate. Normally the inlet pipe wouldn't come through the wall of the water tank like that either, I was just trying to convey the basic idea. I'm not a graphic artist, can you tell?

tia, have a good one!

[jcswaim]

Here is a link to a recent discovery on hydrogen storage

http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/newenergyandfuel/com/2010/03/17/a-better-way-to-store-hydrogen/

[Bruce S]

RE:

  how fast? not sure.. really depends on the storage tank, glass and carbon fibre tanks will hold it the longest.

Pressurizing can cause its on problems. When you pressurize H2 it becomes easier for it to explode do the nature of it not being perfectly dry so to speak.

The bubble I spoke of would be the H2 trying to reconnect with the water so you would in effect negate would you've just made.

Sorry should said that instead of bubble :-/

Methane and Hydrogen are both lighter than air gasses but different in chemical makeup. Methane hates air, actually the better way to say it is that Stored Methane wants to make WAR with air so it would go B O O M if mixed under pressure.

Stored Methane needs to be anaerobic <;-? ( fancy word for Oxygen starved) , and since water does not let go of its air without a good fight, its perfect for running Methane through to clean the sulfur and other nasty(s) out.

Hydrogen can be made by splitting water molecules so it want be one with water again and will do so way too easy.

Graphics? I can't even draw a straight line with a ruler and a helper :-).

To make the drawing best for Methane merely change the inlet pipe to be 2/3rds to the bottom an angle of about 20 degrees with a one way ball valve ( so methane can't back flow) and you're all set.

Hope this helps;

Cheers

Bruce S

[Bruce S]

RE;

 Hydrogen in order to be usable to deliver needs to either be pressurized of "pulled" in by forming a vacuum.

Pressurizing hydrogen is tricky and not something I really wanted to try, except in very small amounts.

It will take a whole bunch of it either stored at very high pressure (3000psi) to have enough to be able to do a lot with it. otherwise you're going to need some weather balloon sized balloons to hold any.

Propane/Methane can be made liquid much easier, the chicken poop guy actually bubbled his methane through water then pressurized it using a diver's pump.

The available energy to make use of is another factor. Not looking up any math or googling . I think stored H2 has 1/6th the available energy as stored propane/NG.

Hydrogen with its flame spread and extra hot burn properties is one of the better reason why its so good as an on-demand fuel. It can be made and fed up-stream in the air/fuel mixture, this helps the flame burn hotter, making a more complete burn for the gas which in essence makes more power available and less fuel needed for the power needed , thus giving better fuel ranges.

Hydrogen and even Alky (E100) items used to be almost not allowed on this forum. This was due in part to people spouting un-supportable claims.

Before I started posting methods and uses of Alky for fuels, I made sure it was okay with the Admins and editors.

I my opinion: They began allowing these posts once real-world users, maker's where posting.

I try not to post about something I haven't at least tried or are doing and the Admins have been very nice to let me pass-on what I've done/learned.

For uses and builds you might have a look at Tecker's posts and I think he has a web with these as well. He's 1 who's done it doing it now poster(s).

Hope this helps;

Ask anytime;

Cheers

Bruce S

     

[Bruce S]

can you re-check that link? can't seem to get it up>

Thanks

Bruce S

[REdiculous]

Interesting. I just assumed it would work for hydrogen too. Guess not...or not really.

"To make the drawing best for Methane merely change the inlet pipe to be 2/3rds to the bottom an angle of about 20 degrees with a one way ball valve ( so methane can't back flow) and you're all set."

Look at the drawing again and you can see that the gas can't flow back to the digester, only water can...in theory. You don't want the water flowing back either so a better drawing would have the pipe coming in from the top, like this...

This time I omitted the tie-downs and my pipes leak but I added a dotted line to show the level of gas vs. water in the storage tank....it helps me visualize what's happening, anyway...

This way you shouldn't need a one-way valve...no moving parts. Have a good one!

[tanner0441]

Hi

The link worked for me.  The idea of storing gasses disolved or in some other inert medium is not new, acetylene is disolved in acetone in a cylinder filled with capok.

Brian

[Bruce S]

RE;

   Just a quick note before heading out on scooter to play in traffic.

This pic. is better and I understand omitting the tie-downs, still there just not on drawings.

This can work, BUT if your water pressure on the bottom happens to be higher than incoming methane you could get a reverse flow .

The ball valve is optional for working systems and a working digester should have enough push.

The angled setup is what I've used with great success and is what most units I've seen still in operation.

Cheers!!

Bruce S

 

[REdiculous]

"This can work, BUT if your water pressure on the bottom happens to be higher than incoming methane you could get a reverse flow ."

There is no water pressure...

If I was better at drawing you'd be able to tell that the water tank isn't sealed. This lets the excess gas escape when the storage tank is full. If you have a minute you can test it in the kitchen...

Stick a straw in a bowl of water and then put in an upside down cup slightly above it. If you can blow air into the straw and it bubbles into the cup then you've got it. Besides an outlet and a ready supply of gas, that's it.

I'm already (!?) really poor this month but I think I've got enough materials around to build a small version...if I don't screw anything up. I should be able to use my brother's little paint-can gasifier to feed it some gas and see what happens.

Eventually I'd like to set up a large digester and storage tank. Our compost pile is 12'x12'x3' and it's just sitting there, wasting away. Combined with a down-draft gasifier for the lulls I think we could power the farm. Eventually.

Have a good one!

[electrondady1]

the link worked for me as well,thanks.

hopefully , something comes of this discovery.

the  lack of a practical method of storing hydrogen has been holding us back for a long time.

it's staggering to imagine the profound changes in our world  once hydrogen becomes a common fuel.

 

[Bruce S]

RE;

 I feel your pain on the poor section!! Tax time :-/

I'm Still learning to post here :-). Even without a pressure system in place there is the weight or the water ~8lb/gal that will exert itself on the methane trying to bubble out. This is similar to have a "J" tube in my batch Mash system it lets the CO2 out and keep air from coming in, even tho there's no measurable pressure in the system the weight of the water is there. That's the only reason for my statement.

That compost pile of yours going to waste, don't be too hard on yourself, its not going to waste they working hard inside of it to leave you with a nice pile of compost for the garden :-)

The paint can gasifer I've read about them and have a fan assisted down-draft unit. But nothing real big yet.

My unit will not hold much more than small twigs and Pin-Oak seedlets, but once heated and running it'll boil up a nice pot of tea.

Come back on details of it when you have a spare minute.

HAVE FUN!!

Cheers

Bruce S

 

[REdiculous]

There is the weight of the water to overcome, which is exactly the problem I ran into when I tried this last night using a 5 gallon water container as the storage tank.

His little gasifier consists of 2, 1 gallon paint cans. One is the hopper that you fill with wood scraps, seal and put in a fire. It has a copper pipe connecting it to the lid of the other can which has another pipe coming off as the gas outlet. There's no way it can provide the pressure needed to make it into a storage tank that deep.

Oh well...I assumed my 'fill it w/ the paint can' idea was doomed right after I posted it. A good down-draft gasifier might be capable, I dunno. A properly fed & sized digester should be capable.

I don't have any real use for the gas yet so I'm giving up for now. Looking forward to seeing other people's work, of course. later

[ghurd]

"There is the weight of the water to overcome"

No?

The water pressure is related to depth.

Looks like if the tube goes into the top of that floating tank, then the pressure would be a lot less.

Like put a 'T' in the output tube for the input tube too?

G-

[REdiculous]

Hrmm. I don't see why a T wouldn't work, except it would be better w/ a one-way valve so that the gas can't flow backwards. Wait, I think we sort of talked about this already.

If you can't put in enough pressure to even start to push the water out of the tank then you can't really store anything under pressure anyway.

Oh, the floating storage tank doesn't need to be floating - probably shouldn't be floating. If all the tanks were made from steel it would make sense to weld it into one unit, for instance.

later

[Bruce S]

RE;

  I would ask that you not give up...

That's the worst think to do. Took me tons of time to get one working, even then it only worked "sorta" until I finally went to a energy fair and saw how the working ones are built and should work.

Producer gas which is what is being made with this method has very little pressure abilities, if that statement makes :-).

Methane is actually more forgiving, the little buggers will work with you and give you gas (yup PUN intended), and it'll once working; work and the gas pressure will build up or bubble if cleaning it through water.

Methane is different in that it is much denser than wood gas. Methane is mostly Nat'l gas (CH4) produce gas is mostly carbon monoxide.

Go with the methane trials, its much easier to get working and store, let the other person work on getting the producer/wood gas unit working.

If you have some reading time, jump over to journey to forever's website, the info on methane is top notch..

Cheers

Bruce S