Energy Independance in America

[KE6CVH]

Hello group,

  This is definitely for the rant section. It is related to renewable energies so should be of interest to some readers. In 2007 I sent a letter to Paul Gipe and he was patient and kind enough to turn it into a link on his web page in January of 2007.  It was an article about COOP wind power and was listed in that section of his page.

http://www.wind-works.org/articles/AmericanEnergyIndependencethroughCooperativeInvestmentinWindEnerg



y.html

  His section grew with more articles and I received an occasional email asking about COOP wind.  Recently, I received an email from a guy in Germany asking about that article at my email address, ke6cvh@yahoo.com.  It prompted me to consider the recent problems with the economy.  Once again Paul Gipe was patient and kind enough to make this January's letter into a link on his web page almost exactly two years after the first.

http://www.wind-works.org/coopwind/RenewableEnergyBondsforEnergyIndependence.html

  After sending that letter I contacted just about everyone under the sun in government via web email forms and even hand written letters about the subject.  I contacted a lady at DOE, department of energy, who eventually emailed back stating a collegue thought it would be more in the purvue of the department of the treasury.  I ended up being passed on the phone to a guy who obviously had been with the treasury department for quite a while.  He mentioned checking out www.treasurydirect.gov.  I found that a bit of a boring web site and the auctions he referred to just about put me to sleep.  When I asked him during the conversation about savings bonds he had previously worked in the marketing department for them and told me that the marketing department had been dis-established quite some time back to save money (is that an oxy-moron?).  He also mentioned savings bonds for community projects being a problem as they were for the federal level not the community (is that another oxy-moron?).  He suggested I check out the CREB (Clean Renewable Energy Bonds) program.  Looking at that on the internet and consulting Paul Gipe on them he said they weren't as "clean" as my suggestion.  I also saw them completely different than a small savings bond program that are sold by Uncle Sam typically in $25 increments.

  Fast forward a few days and I heard that President Obama stated in one of his speeches that we would be energy independant in 10 years.  Today on the news I saw that out of 16.5 billion requested for green energy in the bailout program only 3 billion was going to be spent.  Then, while watching the Sunday news today I saw Mike Huckabee being interviewed about our economy and discussing doubts about the subject.  When asked his opinion, he mentioned the government selling bonds as the solution prompting me to fill out more web based email forms on his web page and others.

  My question to the group on this post interested in replying is what do you think the solution to Energy Independance in America, how can the average citizen contribute, and how can this solution be implemented with our present economic conditions?  I prefer to be a man of action rather than sit on the side "hoping" other people fix problems for me and am sure anyone on this post would be cut of the same cloth.  Putting it another way, I'd rather be part of the solution than part of the problem and know others on the post are the same way.  What is your 2 cents on the issue and how do you think the average citizen can contribute to fix that problem with our country?

Best Regards,

Mike Kendall

[zap]

Your last choice in your poll points to where, I think, the biggest problem lies.

People don't care enough... and not just in the USA.

Maybe it will take the government "shoving it down our throats" before enough people take notice?

[wooferhound]

I agree with Zap above.

The average Joe Sixpack isn't even trying to be informed and are just powering through their lives without any care or knowledge of conservation. Plus these are the first people to complain about rising Utility Bills.

[spinningmagnets]

The way I undestand Cap-and-Trade carbon credits, coal steam-electric power will get very expensive. The extra money that comes into the government from this will provide the funding for individual and community RE tax incentives. At least thats the plan, you trust poilticians, don't you?

In plain english the Government will tax coal and subsidize PV roof panels and plug-in hybrid cars (and any other "green-approved" program they deem useful to their agenda)

Everyone knows that when the wind doesn't blow, wind-turbines dont make watts, but the more wind turbines we have, the less coal is burned.

"clean coal" is misleading, but "cleaner than the way we do it now coal" is possible, but it is (you guessed it), expensive.

Geothermal ORC (freon steam) is only possible in specific locations, but anywhere it can be put, it should be.

I can envision energy co-op's being similar to a condo association with a meeting once a month to discuss business.

Perhaps a PV farm with a couple large wind-gens feeds a Vanadium Redox battery that services a cluster of homes. Each home recieves a monthly energy allowance for the base fee, and any use over that is very expensive. Perhaps a propane-powered back-up gen?

Pilot communities will be difficult to start-up, and getting existing home-owners to agree on anything will be like herding cats...

[fcfcfc]

Hi:

A tough nut to crack... It is human nature to only really respond when the threat is near and strong. Look at cigarette smoking. People pay to poison themselves because the deadly consequences are not near term. When they are laying there dying they will be saying, "oh, I wish...." too late pal...

Anyway, you really for the masses, have to use power and sex to sell mainstream. That's what works. Everything else is like in the movie Independence Day. Even when the missiles could get through, they just couldn't cause enough damage. The RE missiles that the average person can fire, even in large numbers, are just to small to stop the momentum of the conventionals space ship. You need to find that show stopper solution that can not be suppressed or stopped and give it to them right up the butt, metaphorically speaking of course....

.....Bill

[dnix71]

The only way America can become energy independent is to force people to drive much smaller, fuel efficient cars. Cutting coal use won't make us independent. We have more coal than we are ever to likely use.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0202/p10s01-uspo.html

[scottsAI]

KE6CVH,

The answer is simple.

The people that care try to do something, the people that don't stop them.

In the city try to put up a wind turbine! Nobody wants to look at YOUR turbine.

Bird scare, flinging ICE, noise and other stuff used to stop wind turbine construction.

Historical areas, NO PV or solar heating etc. not the right "look".

Need federal laws preventing locals laws or ordnances limiting RE.

RE is our right, the way things should be.

Even my wife is a problem, she does not like the "look".

Well if everybody did it then it would be the "look".

Our society needs to get over the "look" as a valid excuse to deny my rights to my resources.

TV antennas had to get a federal law stopping local laws forbidding TV antennas.

We do NOT have an energy shortage. The sun supplies more energy each day than we use each year.

Absolutely no reason to drive small cars, or other artificial limitations.

Just let me access my own resources without a lot of red tape$ and get on with it!

Have fun,

Scott Beversdorf.

[TheCasualTraveler]

""What is your 2 cents on the issue and how do you think the average citizen can contribute to fix that problem with our country?""

     Personally, I think it will take a crisis to make people change. Not a gas shortage like in the 70's, nor the recent rise in oil prices and not the threat of global warming but a real life altering, scare the heck out of you crisis. And to be honest, I don't see it coming. I think we will have a more gradual change to different energy solutions as they become feasible and allow people to continue in their wasteful lifestyles.

     I think the only thing the average person can do is to take care of themselves and to set an example for those that will follow and know that the majority probably don't care.

[TomW]

One general comment. Well two:

If you ain't doing you are just talking.

If I have to explain, you won't understand.

Tom.

[windstuffnow]

Energy independance should be called self sufficiency.   Key word being "self", if you want it , the only way you will get it and benifit from it is if you do it yourself.

You can sit back and wait for something to come along, maintain your dependance on some one else ( big companies ) and continue paying for the changes.   The "smart grid" as one example... the 2 trillion to implement it would put solar on every home in america, no grid needed.  It's not really based on independance at all, it's based on the total dependance of you and your energy provider.  

Carbon tax... hmmmm ... aren't we all carbon based entities... isn't everything in the world based on carbon in some form...  Tax you for "being".    

Watch all the big companies merge into single large dominating company's... Pharma - Agra - Chema - Energy... to name a few

True independance is self sufficiency.  The cost of self sufficiency is high but overall a whole bunch cheaper than what complete dependance will cost you in the near future.

The only one that will make it happen, for the good, is YOU!   Polititions can't solve problems only create laws which in turn tend to create more problems... We need good old fashion problem solvers... YOU can do it !  With enough YOU's become WE,   WE together can accomplish anything.  Individually and collectively we can solve the problems.....

 

[fcfcfc]

Well put...

.....Bill

[bob golding]

re: vanadium redox batteries. as some of you probably know i have been interested in these for a while now,after doing the figures. unfortunately the only company actually making these vrb power in canada has gone into administration. i still think they have a lot of potential but so far no one seems to have cracked the method of getting them to market. the administrators are looking for a buyer. whats the betting some large lead acid battery manufacturer snaps it up and buries it? i am still planning to make a small prototype but it quite challenging and i will be hard pressed to do it for less than the cost of conventional lead acid batteries.

sorry for stealing the thread.

cheers

bob golding

[KE6CVH]

Hello group again,

  I was going to wait and view the comments but must make one myself.

  I agree that if we as individual people aren't doing anything we are doing nothing...indecision and action is in itself a form of decision and action.

  I also realize there is economy in size with wind turbines.  Small to medium wind turbines will not need new infrastructure for HV lines and save money in their own way but it is undeniable the lowest cost/watt are the largest of the turbines.  Self sufficient systems off the grid are awesome but usually require large battery systems.

  What I'm getting ready to say and throw into the mix is the word "teamwork".  As they say (a bit corny) is that there is no "I" in the word teamwork.  An example of teamwork is this very bulletin board that is available on otherpower.com. This is how Japan and now China have been doing such a good job wreaking havoc on our economy.  Wether they have a choice or wether they are being forced under inhumane conditions they have one thing in common and that is a national drive behind them amongst other considerations.

  A little saved in savings bonds from each person making for example a multi-hundred megawatt solar trough plant or wind turbine farm leads to much larger gains and efficiency.  Americans mean well and if allowed to individually participate by buying savings bonds to support RE projects it would spread like wildfire and the power of the people could not be denied.

  At the same time I believe that we must do Everything we can do simultaneously to fix the problem, same as what T. Boone Pickens is pushing.  There is no one single solution and it must be an effort of every solution we can implement to fix the problem.

  If I was to vote on the poll, I would vote for a combination of the two different areas that are being voted on up to this point.  If I could go back and redo the poll I would add both of the above as one of the answers.

  I faxed every member on the Senate Committee for Energy and Natural Resources.  I faxed every member on the Congressional Select Committee for Energy Independance and Global Warming.  I also phoned and faxed other lawmakers as well as dropping a note to the new administration via their web page for the White House.  I have approximately 400 watts worth of portable solar panels but they must remain in storage as I am somewhat of a transient right now.  When I have the opportunity, I intend fully to build and use the homebrew turbines but realize it is not an option that everyone can practice.  When I have an opportunity, I will begin building a turbine and hope to have one ready before I move back to the USA.  In the meantime, all I can do is study and actively push for what is the right direction.

  Another situation with the micro to medium sized turbines is cost/watt.  Here is another idea to chew on.  Computers became commonplace after there were standards implemented.  One of the biggest costs of a home wind installation is the tower.  Looking at tower web sites I see many times the mention of engineering plans that can be submitted to local permits.  What about the idea of a standard tower that has a provided installation engineering plan that is not proprietary.  Anyone who meets ISO-900X standards could build the tower and subsequently it would become cheaper.  Same could apply to a turbine alternator or a grid tie inverter in similar fashion to what was done with the blade profiles that were developed with tax payer money.  All of these factories that are shutting down could choose to build the parts based on the available standards.  The same thing happened with LINUX.  After LINUX came out there were many software companies that developed and improved upon the public standard.  It did not put Microsoft out of business but did allow some competition and allow a more affordable product for those that choose to use it. It is similiar to what the Dan's and Hugh are doing by publishing their homebrew plans.  The difference is that the standardized design would allow easy and quick implementation/production by a factory set up for it and be designed for factory production.  It is not communism or socialism as nothing is keeping another factory from developing something better on their own and keeping it proprietary for what they are doing on their own.  Such a plan may just drop the price down per/watt for the medium sized turbines and possibly allow more farms to connect to the grids and remove some of the waste.  The thing to watch out for would be a repeat of what happened in the 1970's and that would be a rush of turbines that are poorly engineered and quickly fail.

Best Regards and with Respect,

KE6CVH (Mike)

[spinningmagnets]

Trojan should pro-actively partner with whoever holds the VRB patents. Larger systems would use VRB, but smaller systems will still want the simplicity and lower cost of well-understood lead-acid.

I used to be skeptical about most conspiracy theories, but its been found that Chevron/Texaco bought a controlling interest in Cobasys, who holds the patents for "large format" NiMH batteries such as are found in the Prius.

They have effectively stopped anyone else from coming out with EV's or plug-in hybrids using NiMH's. Warren Buffet has invested heavily in BYD (Chinese), the largest manufacturer of LiFePO4 batteries as the next best alternative.

Why wouldn't he just invest in Cobasys? NiMH's work well and are cheaper than LiFePO4...Cobasys' new management has made it clear, they don't want to make or license the product they hold the patents to.

[bob g]

i couldn't agree more if i tried!

for godsakes we put a man on the moon, useing computers the likes of which

most gradeschoolers calculators could run circles around. (well almost)

it seems that now some 40 years later we could get to where we were energy self sufficient, but we aren't ever going to get there waiting for bigger government to do it for us.

Big business as with Big government has no interest in us being self sufficient

self sufficiency means you don't buy as much from big business, self sufficiency

means big government can't tax and therefore control you as much.

time to dust off two books and give them another read

"five acres to independance" and "walden"

then go back and watch the pbs series "1873" and "mark and ollie" on the the travel

channel.

it is in the nature of man to resist change, man usually will not change until there is a compelling reason to do so. that compelling reason must be compelling on a personal level and not through some political speech, or some abstract presentation.

ok, rant over, stepping off the soapbox now

bob g

[wdyasq]

Mike,

I want to clear up just a little about T Boone's projects.

T. Boone owns water-rights to large sections of the Panhandle area of Texas. He plans on selling this water to the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex area. To do this he will need a Right of Way to place a large waterline. He cannot get eminent domain to put in a waterline.

The electric power he wants to transmit from the wind-turbines will require a power-line Right of Way. This can be obtained by eminent domain (different part of the government here in Texas). Once the ROW is obtained, the owner (is this T. Boone1 or his evil twin T. Boone2?) can lease part of the right of way for other uses.

These are facts. I am not suggesting T. Boone might have a clandestine motive for wanting to install wind power. There are no electricity producing wind-turbines on T. Boone Pickens personal land.

There are two reasons to go to watch a movie at the drive-in with your favorite 'honey'. One is to watch the movie.

Ron

[richhagen]

"5 acres to independence"

I live in a city, and its difficult here.  I have PV on my roof and a small turbine now and again.  Still I haven't managed to generate more than a minority fraction of my total energy usage, although I am still trying to change that as I just purchased another 10 Amps at 48V of (occasional in Chicago) solar.  I also had a garden on my roof and lot, but generate only a tiny fraction of my caloric intake.  If I had 5 acres here I think I would be able to pull it off.  I wonder if the neighbors would even notice if I took over their unused roof space?  

As for the main gist of the thread, I think people will do what is more convenient for them right here and now.  It will take intervention, or a crisis to make sustainable domestic energy sources the more convenient.  I am hoping for intervention before a major crisis occurs.  Rich

[bob g]

the "five acres to independance" reference was not meant in a literal way

but there are many lessons to be learned from it that could be applied even

on a smaller scale.

ever growing veggies on the roof is a step in the right direction in my opinion

bob g

[independent]

Hello all.

I've wanted to weigh into this conversation. I read those two letters listed above and they do make sense to me.

However, I can't help but think a lot of this is just talk. The whole U.S. economy is based on growth and energy consumption. There is no way that you can talk about Energy Independence (EI) without confronting these facts.

Energy Independence is one of those terms which has several meanings, the two that I can think cannot cohabitate.

Firstly, it seems to directly imply, freedom from overseas energy ie Middle East oil. I suspect that is what the idea of EI connotes to the average person. Does the average person realise how much energy is required to supplant oil as an energy provider?

Secondly, there is the idea that the energy produced be renewable. Is that even remotely realistic considering how much energy people think they need?

Those are my main questions and they aren't answered by the poll so I'm not partaking.

[bob golding]

opps i was wrong about vrb. just looked at their website and see that a chinese company called jb power have brought all the assets. lets hope they do more with the technology than has been done so far.

[electrondady1]

here's hopping for U.S. energy independence soon.

as it stands now, my country, Canada, supplies 20 % of your present consumption.

when i was a kid growing up at school they told us we would have enough crude to last a 100 years and in the future the tar sands would last forever.

so now, most of the light sweet crude is gone into the pipeline to the states  and the tar sands are being developed at an astonishing rate to the point were the pollution from the refining process is the largest source of green house gas in my country.

and yet the petroleum i consume here in Ontario is from the middle east.

the oil companies have our leaders in there pocket.

 

[TomW]

e1;

here's hopping for U.S. energy independence soon.

Heres my latest step:

http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/album124?page=1

Probably never pay us back but helps put us on the proper side of the equation.

I talk it up, too but doing it is the true fun. A diary coming tomorrow, if I have the energy.

Tom

[richhagen]

Here was part of my little rooftop patch from last summer:





I lined the containers along the north edge of the roof as the solar panels are on the south edge.  This area is shaded in the winter, but not in the summer, so it was good for a garden, but not solar panels.  Rich

[richhagen]

Me likes the battery. . . . I suspect that with your turbines and such you are able to supply a significant portion of your domestic electrical consumption.  Rich

[fcfcfc]

..are those Trojan L-16's...

.....Bill

[TomW]

Nope, they are Deka 2 volt cells built for industrial pallet jack service. 12] 2 volt cells about 80# each in a steel can.

Here is the Diary I just posted on it:

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2009/1/30/161351/147

Tom

[jonas302]

Nobody would like it but the only way to curb the energy usage of non conservative types would be to increase energy cost at least 10 times people would learn quite fast to turn off the lights the extra money would go to green power generation

[adaml]

Couldn't agree more, red tape seems to be the bane of many an aspiration.

[KE6CVH]

your comment had nothing to do with the discussion that was posted.  Please respond about trojan batteries in a discussion about trojan batteries.  Thanks, Mike