Author Topic: Net metering laws and why they are not a valid operating practice.  (Read 530 times)

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N9WOS

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Please bear with me on this.

I am not posting this to get flames or to get people mad.

I am trying to apply normal logic to the subject of selling power back to the utility.

And why I think net metering is not valid.


The problem is the electrical system is not 100% efficient.

The normal transformer you connect to the grid with is normally

more than 90% efficient but never 100% efficient.


So the idea of being credited for the Kwh's you  feed into the

grid at the same rate as the kwh's you use off the grid is automatically

rendered in error, with the error going to the house owner and

the utility has to swallow any losses that occur to the power

as it goes to the next home in the system, even when they

are not getting a dime off of it.

(They are actually losing  money.)


But  having it where the home owner gets paid the Wholesale price

for the power they generate isn't valid either.


When you use power, they make a profit off of it, when

you sell it back, they make a profit off of it when it

goes to another home owner.


The most applicable system

(if you wanted solar/alternative energy to be a zero load on the System)

would be to sell the energy back at a rate that would subtract

transformer round trip energy losses from the total sold back to the power company.

And subtract the average inter house system losses from the power sold back.

And subtract the upkeep for the part of the utility system that they are using.

That would be fare to the power company and to the other people paying a utility bill.


If the person wanted to reduce the amount that is subtracted from the

energy that is sold back, he could chip in on the price of the transformer

feeding his house to get a high efficacy model that will have less round trip losses.

That way, he could sell power back to the grid at almost the rate he uses it from the grid.


But any way you go, when the total grid connected capacity gets over a certain point,

the power company will need to be allowed to make a slight profit off of the

tower people feed back into the grid, to stay in business.


Around here, where we have an REMC that provides utility service.

And the fact that they sell it to the customers at the price it cost to deliver it.

(ie) non for profit.

It would be quite correct for them to pay you Wholesale price for the power you generate.

Because the price they are selling it for is the retail price plus system losses and

cost to upkeep the system.

(nothing more)

« Last Edit: June 23, 2003, 12:35:38 PM by (unknown) »

laskey

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Re: Net metering laws and why they are not a valid
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2003, 06:53:02 PM »
Well, I'd have to say that the main point your argument is missing is that most power companies are "For-profit" and are in the business of making money.  Even here in Ontario where the power company is a Crown Corporation they are still for-profit.  They don't make one (the way they waste tax payers money), but it's still considered for-profit.  If you feed more power onto the system than you use, and get paid for it, and you don't give the money to charity, then you are a for-profit power company.

In my mind, both you and your power company are pretty much free to buy and sell for whatever amount you can agree on.  I think that net metering will really only make the power company money, because you have to pay for, install, maintain, your generation equipment, and the power company normally makes a profit from your power without having to produce it.  

In essence, your buy retail and sell wholesale. Any good business guy will tell you, you can't make any money like that.

Your argument is interesting, but there is no company in the world that is going to let little things like the laws of physics dictate what they charge and pay your for power. Another thing is that most power companies can't really tell you what the losses are from the generation point to your house, and they'll have no clue what it'll be from your house to next door.  Those things aren't constant, they vary with temperature and humidity, even the length and type of wire.

I think our best recourse is to cut out the grid altogether.  Produce enough power to run your place and store the extra (in batteries, in hot water, in hot air, in cold air), but don't give it away, it's not worth it to you... Maybe everyone else can benifit, but not you.

Cya,
Chris

« Last Edit: June 23, 2003, 06:53:02 PM by laskey »

iFred

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create your own power.
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2003, 08:43:11 PM »
And I agree with Chris. Make your own power, don't even bother with grid tye. Grid tye cost $$$, What I am in the process of doing is hooking up many small generators to do the work of one big one. I beleive that if you have a genny that just runs one or two main things in your house that you can still reduce that total amount of power used, which you will pay less for,


so technically speaking, my computer runs 24/7. (this would reduce my bill by some percentage%) I am building a genny/battery/inverter just for that and nothing else. again (reduceing bill), My lighting system will have another genny/battery/inverter and is just designed for that and nothing else (again reducing bill) . I still use grid power, but only for those things not yet tyed to a genny/battery/inverter. Slowly I'm reducing the need but not totally eliminating the grid.


What is interesting here is that, they can't stop me from doing this, since this is my power system and not theirs, plus I don't have to fiddle with the existing house wiring and causing other problems. I pull a single wire to that which I want to run and directly hook it indevidualy into my own system. Maybe someday i'll get off the grid.. but in the mean time I can reduce my total usage and reduce my bill as a result without grid tye. Good Luck!


P.S. Not all things require batteries for storage. Water heaters, space heaters etc... can be run more or less directly, therefore if you had a genny just for this with say a power conditioning system, batteries are not needed! reducing the costs futher...


 

« Last Edit: June 23, 2003, 08:43:11 PM by iFred »

(unknown)

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Re: create your own power.
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2003, 10:23:29 PM »
How much does the power company pay when they buy?
If I have 3 acres and I put up 20 windmills is it worth while?  I could learn to like that.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2003, 10:23:29 PM by (unknown) »

DanB

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disagree
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2003, 03:12:20 PM »
I... kind of disagree!


It's fine and fun to make your own power, especially if its either a hobby, or... you live off the grid!


But the grid is a beautiful thing, and allows for excess in one place to be used where there's deficit in another.   Since the govt fairly well subsidizes the uses of fossil fuels and the generation of "cheap" utility grid power, I think it would be fair for them to subsidize folks who want to properly feed back into the grid!  Fair is fair...  and we really need to promote cleaner power and (#1) conservation.


Fortunately though - we do have the grid and I can imagine a day where lots of folks are feeding it and drawing from it!  This would be best - it would eliminate the cost/toxic waste of batteries!


(just imagine the disaster it would be if everyone in "town" was going through a 1500 amp hour or larger battery bank every 7 years or so!).  The grid allows folks to share power and makes it possible to make your own power with no, or a very small, battery bank!


Talk of "national security"....  things would be quite secure of a good % of our power was coming off 50 million individual roof tops vs a couple large power plants!  This sort of thing is far off... but may be possible and would have some advantages.


Lastly - to the folks who say "make your own power" - guarentee, if you're not hooked up to the grid it'll cost more!  Just consider the cost of new batteries - break it down monthly over their average life span, and you find that the batteries alone actually cost about as much (or maybe a bit more) than grid power.  And that doesnt even account for the cost of panels, windmills and everything else!


I have a 500 watt solar setup, 1 homebrew windmill.  I make about $10 worth of power a month.  (thats what my power would cost in town).  My 1200 amp hour battery bank cost around $1000.  If they last 10 years, then thats $100/year... about $8/month.  Good chance they'll last less than that!  So...  I think were lucky to have a good power grid, and I think they need to encourage (help) folks start feeding back into it.  I think it would be an environmental disaster if everyone had to buy huge battery banks every 10 years and the grid is what can save us from that.

« Last Edit: June 24, 2003, 03:12:20 PM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

laskey

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Re: disagree
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2003, 08:14:26 AM »
Wow, you're proving my point for me.  You make $10 in power a month.  If you sold it all, and didn't use any yourself you'd get $10 on a system that cost probably 1.5 times that much (if you totalled all your costs).  I still think it's not worth it to feed your power back onto the grid.  Use it all your self to offset what you would have used.  I'm not saying the grid isn't fabulous, what I am saying is it's not really worth the expense to generate enough power to feed back onto it.  Think of the system you'd need to cover all your uses and the have some left to feed the grid.  Pretty expensive isn't it.

I don't really buy the battery argument either.  Every battery company in the world has a vigorous recycling program.  I doubt you'd be allowed to just throw your battery in a landfill where you are anyway. I know there is no place in Canada you can do that.  And it's in a battery company's best interest to recycle, almost all of a dead battery can easily be used in making a new battery.  I wouldn't call that an environmental disaster.

I wouldn't worry about national security either, Most power companies require that when the grid goes down (a Blackout) your system has to disconnect itself from the grid to protect the line-workers trying to fix it.  So, how would being disconnected during a disaster help your neighbours?

Remember I'm not saying the Grid is bad.  Oh, no, I love it.  It's just that the current net metering laws aren't cutting it.

Cya,
Chris

« Last Edit: June 25, 2003, 08:14:26 AM by laskey »

DanB

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Re: disagree
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2003, 10:40:14 AM »
Yes Chris - I basicly agree with you here.  Net metering isn't going to work out well (and doesnt) without some govt. help.  I do think in the end though, its better for folks to share the grid than go through batteries.  They way folks treat their "jumk" -  im afraid that if everyone had batteries, they'd not get recycled as soon, or as much as we'd hope for.  They'd be lying all over... freezing, leaking etc.


Battery plants do recycle to a large degree I know, but it's a nasty industry and I think they are to be avoided if at all possible.  The grid could help with that if things make it economical and practical.  I can see that possibility someday.

« Last Edit: June 25, 2003, 10:40:14 AM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

nasher

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Net metering laws and why they....
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2003, 03:07:57 PM »
battery companies only recycle batteries they get back.. there are so many people who throw away batteries (even illegaly)  and dont care about recycling..


the Grid is nice for a person who dosnt want to live off it or try to...


Personaly i would love to be able to supply everying i own with alternative energy but i cant with all the stuff i have and the fact i live in an apartment complex so i dont have room for a large solar power pannel or a windmill


what i have myself is small solar appliances and such to take the place of useing grid tied electricity...


i use rechargable batteries and have a solar battery charger i can eithor stick in my car window or out the back porch to recharge.  i use florescent lights and keep my power useage down to a comfortable level for me...


personaly i would love it if every house had 4-10 solar pannels on it and wind generators and such but its just not gona happen anytime soon


i do my part in recycling everyting i can from batteries to paper bags ,plastic bags, cans, paper, cardboard, plastic and conserve.. thats about all i can do right now with were i live .. I live on the grid and i couldnt live off it were i curently live...


Nasher

« Last Edit: July 28, 2003, 03:07:57 PM by nasher »