hydrogen and Iceland's geothermal energy production

[stop4stuff]

see: http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/12/16/134429/54

Well now...

I didn't know much about the geothermal properties of Iceland before...

Some googling has enlightened me greatly, and here's the basics of what I found.

Large scale geothermal exploitation in Iceland is relatively new. The processes of extracting useable heat energy involves some chemistry to prevent scaling and corrosion of pipework and heat exchangers... a lot of heat is lost in these processes.

Wells have been sunk to extract geothermal heat. There are 52 wells around Reykjavik serving the 150,000 inhabitants of the area and the distribution system carries an annual flow of 55 million cubic meters of water.

Geothermal water is used through heat exchangers to heat fresh water, making steam which in turn runs turbines to provide electricity.

The 3 low temperature geothermal fields around Reykjavik have already been fully exploited and production capacity is declining by 4% annually. So far no new useable geothermal fields have been found, and new oil fired boilers have been installed to meet the increasing demand.

A new geothermal power plant has been established near Nesjavellir, some 27 km (~17 miles) from Rykjavik. Low temperature water is piped to Reykjavik. This newer resource is expected to last around 30 years.

The above information was found @ http://www.energy.rochester.edu/is/reyk/

More information can be found @ The Icleandic Energy Authority's website http://www.os.is/ (mostly Icelandic)

Icelandic energy authorities have plans to deep drill, up to 5km, to exploit 400-500 deg C geothermal regions.

Exerpt from BBC Newsnight Archives 12/21/2002

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/archive/2208013.stm

'...Only 5% of geothermal power has been tapped so far....'

 And another news report estimating 16% of geothermal enrgy tapped so far..

Will Fuel Cells Make Iceland the 'Kuwait of the North?' - 2/15/2002 - http://www.worldpress.org/Europe/436.cfm

Meaning that there's loads more geothermal energy to be had yet... but how much and how long will it last.

Exerpt from BBC News - 'Is hydrogen the fuel of the future?' 3/27/2003

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2880975.stm

...'The only emission is water vapour - although the air pollution is only moved up the supply chain, and occurs when hydrogen is produced using oil or gas.'

I assume that this would not apply to Iceland as the energy source would be geothermal. Iceland already has one of the highest greenhouse gas emmisions per capita.

Taken from http://www.shell.is/category.aspx?catID=275

What will be happening in Iceland?

 2003 - The first hydrogen buses begin experimental operation and evaluation.

 2005 - Testing completed and the project reviewed.

 2006 - New passenger vehicles demonstraded and tested.

 2006 - Several seagoing test vessels launched.

 2010 - Hydrogen vehicles made commercially available.

Exerpts from http://www.h2net.org.uk/PDFs/RN_1/Iceland_presentation.pdf

Icelandic New Energy Ltd.

Is a joint-venture company owned by:

VistOrka hf (EcoEnergy)

DaimlerChrysler AG --- Currently oil dependant to sell their products

Norsk Hydro ASA

Shell Hydrogen B.V. --- Currently a major world oil producer

'...In this way transformation of

Iceland into a hydrogen

economy/society could

possibly be completed in the

years 2030-2040...'

Just about when all the oil in the world is going to be so expensive that it will make sense for the world to copy Iceland's example???

Most of the news articles I found were 1,2 or more years old...

So what is happening today with Iceland's Hydrogen Economy....

A picture of 1 out of Iceland's 3 H2 busses is about 3/4 way down this page.

http://www.unc.edu/~lagace/Summer2004/iceland.htm

Oil Distributors Fined $40 million for Anti-Trust Violations

http://www.buyusa.gov/iceland/en/101.html

Shell, ESSO, OLIS, and Orkan, were found guilty of price fixing and bid rigging... ho hum...

I didn't find any real information about how things are progressing

Estimates for Iceland becoming a Hydrogen Economy range from 2030 to 2050.

As far as I can figure out most of the geothermal energy taken from the ground is lost.

Aluminium production in Icleand has pushed the CO2 emissions way above European limits.

There is a Hydrogen filling station in Iceland and 3 hydrogen powered fuel cell busses.

Washington DC also boasts a Hydrogen filling station and 6 h2 cars... the cars cost over $1,000,000 each!

Conclusion (none really)

Hydrogen economy may become a reality for some societies, but at what cost to the environment and our planet?

-------

more reading...

BBC News 4/24/2003 - Iceland's landmark gas station - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2973885.stm

BBC news 12/24/2001 - Iceland launches energy revolution - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1727312.stm

ReykjavikResources.com - The world´s first hydrogen fuel station - 1/20/2003:

http://www.reykjavikresources.com/news2.asp?cat_id=34&module_id=220&element_id=545&nl=tr



ue

The Road from a Fossil to a Sustainable Energy Economy: The Strategy in Iceland - http://www.optimistmag.org/gb/0014/one.php?id=6

BBC Country Profile: Iceland - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/1025227.stm

Iceland Review; review of Icelandic News and Life (in English) - http://icelandreview.com/

The UK Hydrogen Energy Network  http://www.h2net.org.uk/

Stuff I didn't stop4...

electrolysis efficiency

fuel cell efficiency

hydrogen storage costs

comparison of hydrogen vs battery technology as energy storage mediums.

--------

Make up you own mind... I still believe hydrogen = hype!

[finnsawyer]

I thought bauxite was basically aluminum oxide.  So, how does the production of aluminum produce CO2?  I mention this because of the possibility of the development of a rechargeable aluminum battery.  That would make feasible the development of the electric car.  So, in that case, forget hydrogen.  Even today with the aluminum air batteries being one shot deals, there may be applications where the resulting aluminum oxide could be economically shipped to Iceland for reprocessing.  

[stop4stuff]

Graphite (carbon) is used as the anode and cathode of the eclectrolytic cell that is used to extract aluminium from aluminium oxide disolved in molten cryolite.

During the electrolysis process, the graphite breaks down and CO2 is released.

For more info, see; http://www.uyseg.org/greener_industry/pages/aluminium/aluminium_7PM2.htm

paul

[finnsawyer]

So basically that's an area that needs improvement.  Since the electrodes only provide electrons, it seems other materials should work.  How about silicon, for example?  If that combines with oxygen it produces glass, which should float on the mixture.

"Question everything"

[stop4stuff]

something i know very little about...

more research needed )

[RatOmeter]

Nice research there, Paul.  I agree that the 'hydrogen economy' is doomed to failure, at least in the near term (with no cheap, plentiful energy source to crack those water molecules as yet).

Back to geothermal for a moment... assuming that 'global warming' is really occuring, doesn't pumping heat from deep within the planet's crust up to the surface only exacerbate the warming trend?  The stats you cited indicated that Iceland's geothermal   "production capacity is declining by 4% annually."  That is another way of saying that they're pump that much heat to the surface annually, meaning that that 'clean' process may be having the same effect as the production of greenhouse gasses from other energy conversion processes does.

Not so clean after all?

[Gary D]

Iceland is a world away from what's needed in the U.S. We could make quite a dent in our oil needs just by using the waste from animals. The waste-40% by weight in beef alone at butchering can make diesel or heating oil. An article claimed 200 tons of cuttings etc. would give 500 barrels of oil back net... sounds promising if they ever get the pilot plants up and running. Let em graze, fatten up, eat what ya can, and either heat your house or drive with the waste (sorry peta ;-/ lol)...

[windstuffnow]

  I believe all the "solutions" their working on is dependent on the oil reserves serving our needs for many decades.  We need an alternative that could be implemented quickly in the near future.   This would mean an infrastructure that could quickly convert conventional vehicles to burn a new fuel or other means of motive.

  Our world is so dependant on fossil fuels right now that any little hiccup could be quite devistating.  Our economy's are driven by oil and are equally as fragil.

What if... the people hell bent on our destruction decided to concentrate their efforts on the disruption of these supplies, and were successful to a degree that it would take over a year to rebuild and get the oil pumping again....

Oil would become "gold" and everything... I should repeat that EVERYTHING would be hard to get and harder to get to.  The world would be brought to its knees and turned instantly back to the horse and buggy days.   The longer the shortage the more devistating it would be.  

Our long term goals won't help us in our short term needs.  They H2 society is a joke on us, the consumer, and is basically meant for those who are making big bux to continue on making big bux.  

This is just my personal opinion based on what I see going on in the world today.  

Food for thought

Windstuff Ed

[skravlinge]

Iceland a country with about 300 000 people, have an energy need so far from what  USA  have. You can not transform the problem.  The energy taken from the Icelandic ground will not heat up the  planet at all, that heat is released anyhow. Don't confuse the groundheat with vulcanic heat, which pull up from very deep sources, if you use it or not. You can find information on a source  well decline, but it can suddenly raise as well.  Some outbreak in the near history, have put more heat to the air than Iceland ever have used and not likely will use in 100 years. You have got towns under  lava, and big islands are born from underwater vulcanism. Billions of tons of ice has melted on the big glaciers, during outbreaks. The same is with the greenhouse gas, it  comes from the earth to far more amount than the people produce, as they are not so dependent on fossils  even per capita than in USA.  It grows no forests on Iceland, the only resource they have is waterpower, and underground vulcanic activity (it is activity not a static source).  About Icelandic hydrogen projects, the planning for 40 years can probably  not be possible, which plans holds for 40 years. What we can see it is they will try to export some of the natural resources they have, and it is important as their main income   is  fishing industries, and they way the oceans are treated in that respect, they can not relay on that too much. It has been counted as a free resource in the past and some plants are not well designed to use the energy to best output, but it is not a problem for the  surroundings and rest of the world, the heat and smoke find its way out anyhow, and some are slowly degraded in the use of it. If  they plan to start export the resou

rces they may have a better check on  how well it performs, and by knowhow.  The hydrogen economy I think we will see to a  amount on Iceland, and maybe on some other small place,It will not  real for the most countries in the world. In sweden we do not think it will have any  part to count.

Our natural way for fuel cars is ethanol and biodiesel, the use increace and was doubled last 12 month. Hydrogen will be used when it is no other way to move it to its destination, like shipping power from Iceland. It shold be mad to produce hydrogen and use hydrogen cars in Sweden, if the source was anyhow oil or natural gas, and twice  madness to first convert our domestic source to hydrogen and all the problems and cost involved, then we can use it better and cheaper before the processing.

[skravlinge]

Gas from cattles, pig or chicken  manure  are used to produce gas in Sweden, some farmers have their own plant, and some are owned by  counties. The use can be heating or running the counties schoolbusses.

The rest has the same or better value as fertilizer anyhow.

It is estimated that the  wast from primary sugarbeat can give gas to a large amount, of gas but as always then you play with figures, the real world is different, I expect the biogas production will grow on a  small rate, until the what is used now start  to cost. As I can image USA can get very much of the energy needs from biomass,.

[stop4stuff]

The 4% decline in production refers to 3 low temp geothermal regions that provide hot water heating supplies to Reykjavik. From what I undrstand, there's hot water under the ground that's been pumped out, water seeps in to replace the pumped out water and the temp or supply is reducing by 4% annually.

Agreed tho... the heat has to go somewhere... the atmosphere... weather and cloud conditions would be another factor (not-yet-researched) that could cause local atmospheric warming.

[skravlinge]

They use the same production methods as anywhere. You  must see thats which are real big on Iceland (300 000 people) is a fraction in USA. They are not  spreading more than others. I have checked some of the pages you have  adviced. Intersting readings, but some critical views are at hand. Every pages on internet is information, but not all tell  all the fact, it is opinions mostly.

It will not happend Iceland will produce hydrogen from oil (Why should they).The total CO2 relase from the whole yearly  industry  production on Iceland is less  a 1/3000 part of USA´s,

[TomW]

Ed;

Well said. I do think we could utilize a lot of biomass and oil seeds for transport fuel. The crude oil has more value for plastics, medicines and chemicals than fuel in my opinion.

Cheers.

TomW

[stop4stuff]

Natural releasing of heat is expected from volcanic regions.

Volcanoes are like a pressure release valve for our planet...

every so often a build-up of pressure causes the cooled/hardend lava to split releasing hot gas/lava/ash (like a boil rupturing)

Sink wells to release the heat/pressure evenly and that is the situation in Iceland... even pressure/heat release (like a pressure cooker)... so much energy has to be put in to sustain the output.

 300,000 people is about the same as the city I live in...

I will do some research and find out what our city's energy needs are...

And how much energy is produced locally and 'exported' to other regions.

We do have a refinery or 2 nearby, as well as several large military bases, and large industry.

'What we can see it is they will try to export some of the natural resources they have, and it is important as their main income   is  fishing industries, and they way the oceans are treated in that respect, '

Another natural resource that has been exploited and significantly reduced output...

not necessarily for Iceland but for the UK!

Do you remember the 'cod wars'???

I do!

[skravlinge]

The ground in Swden is old and here is no vulcan activity. In some places (I live at such spot) It is radioactive elements producing heat underground. In the town of Lund half of the heating of houses comes from it. The water has to go trought heat excangers and be put back. The heat will decrease in about 20 years, and than it will take about 200 years to recover. That heat we pump and use will anyhow reach the ground, but slower. The warming balance in the air is not harmed. Whatever heat you will take from the underground, if no greenhouse gases are added, will reach the space degraded, like anything you produce heat with. Even wood-heat will go to space, and will be replaced

by sunshine. The sun put in  like 240000 nuclear plants produce, and if it not goes back it will be hot here. The problem is not producing heat, it is producing greenhouse gases, which  f--k the balance.

[monte350c]

Good points...

Wood pyrolysis is being discussed here on the board in a number of threads. I don't know a lot about that subject so correct me if I'm off base - but couldn't the charcoal created by the process be burned afterwards to make heat?

And the gases stored or used in an internal combustion engine...

This seems a lot closer and more probable than anything to do with H2.

I was reading this link last night, perhaps you'll find it interesting too:

http://solstice.crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Boyt/pyrolysis/pyrolysis.html

Have fun and stay warm!

Ted.

[skravlinge]

I remember the COD-war, if it has to be a war going on I hope it will be as this.

[stop4stuff]

I agree, web pages are mostly opinion...

The pages listed are not all that i viewed...

The news pages have to be factual

Please show your sources for 1/3000 co2 release...

I shall be researching this further.

Factors to include;

land mass, population needs, industrial needs and production

[skravlinge]

The good thing is YOU can do it  easy.If the gas is short, you can make gas from the charcoal as well .

[stop4stuff]

peace man

[skravlinge]

I do not like to fill the boards with figures and diagrams. The thing is not suprising at all. We know the use of energy is more in countries with a society consuming more. USA has  steelplants oilrigs and a lot of cars. Coal are used for electric production.  You can easy find the total part of the energy use of the world and the CO2 pro capita well match the coal use for energy and the number of cars and heavy metallurgic plants, and modern life. It is due to  underground energy Iceland have less emission pro capita, from human activities(The emmission which is from the earth not counted, then they will be worse). In Sweden we have good figures too, regarding CO2, but its not because we are better (yet) its due to a lot of nuclear(50% of the electric and we heat houses have electric energy in steel and paper industries, for the time being we are heavy depending on nuke. The decide to close one this week and it will be next year).

[skravlinge]

I was talking about the number  of losses of  "warriors" . I was not judging.

[stop4stuff]

to continue health discussion...rather than opinionated rantings, one should show source of facts or figures.

also...

please use your 'return button' more frequently to eneable easier reading..

thanks

[stop4stuff]

again... peace man

do i care if any person judges me... no

I know when my Judgement Day will be

chill out )

[JW]

Ah-Ha,,, I have found posting #21, pounds fists on his cheast...

 So anyway, I saw this Finish movie(from Finland) and thought of Hannu... I think it was called "The man with no past" It was one of those movies, that is like over an hour, and you have to read the whole dialog from the movie, in yellow letters at the bottom of the screen.(because its in a forgin language) Anyhow i just wanted to remark the filmaker did an excellent job, I was engauged in the story, to the end of the movie, with much eagerness.

JW

[skravlinge]

Ok you looks for facts, you can with a minor effort find it. You do not have to agree, but I am sure you will be better off looking yourself, as its not a hard work. If I publish a lot of good stuff in Swedish, I suppouse it will not help, and I have to do a lot of work and spend much time to produce what you want me to do in a language which  take time  to translate and will never be as good as you easy can find by your own effort. The return button is not a problem on my computer. I thought  the server could handle a Mac. I do not make a return if it is not a paragraph. If you read Swedisch I will be happy to mail you.

[Junkie]

No need for anyone to disrupt "our" oil supplies:

http://www.oilcrisis.com/

http://www.drydipstick.com/

[stop4stuff]

I spent alot of time researching the subject of Iceland and aluminium / hydrogen production and any additional info to help me understand would be very useful.

I don't read swedish, but I have a friend who is swedish that may be able to help me.

Please send a sample email to paul at stop4stuff dot com

thanks,

paul

[skravlinge]

You got mail!

[Gary D]

Your links are mostly falling on deff ears- the average person only hears what is in the mainstream news (not true of this forum). Even an early warning in the 70's did absolutely nothing. When the price was right, there were no more gas lines. That's why I said of the waste at butchering going to diesel or home heating oil... that's not to mention all the methane that can be used while the beasts are ahem active... is becoming more common around here now (Pa.) more people are requesting greener electric and methane is coming online wih some help with startup costs. The heck with "future potential hydrogen", go with what works for NOW! The village idiot, Gary D.

[ghurd]

Way off topic. Just curious.  None of my business.

Do you speak English?

When / where / how did you learn English?

I had German in school. I can not find a toilet in Berlin.

I learned basic French while fishing in Canada.  Washroom, cold, hot, rain, cheeseburger. The fish are hungry. Town is that direction. Your truck is on fire, again.

Does everyone speak 2 languages except me?

G-

[skravlinge]

Off topic, but you  most understand if you have English as native language, you are not forced to learn an other language, you simply expect the world to understand you. Speaking Swedish works well at home, but outside the Nordic, you have to know English. Most of people here can at least read and talk English, write proper is much harder.

[ghurd]

I think you do not understand what I mean.

I am impressed that your English is so very good.

I had German in school and know nothing of German.

I have learned French by need at the time. There is a funny story for every word of French I learned.

I can not understand how a person can learn another language so well.

Everyone away from here seems to speak English and something else.

I think my brain would melt trying to speak 2 languages!

G-

PS-  I do not check for typos.  I figure everyone will know what I meant.

Also, I have a Swedish Mauser Model 1896 6.5 X 55 mm with matching serial numbers, date circa 1916. Like new, test fired only.  Carl Gustov Factory (sp?).  It is the pride of my collection.