Just a Thought

[JB]

Not to Complain but as Tom and others includng myself have said that some good post get schuffled back and the same kind of questions appear later on. Here is my thought. A lot of people are not going to post on a old posting so they start a new one. A lot of people dont use the search. The old board has a lot of good info also. My thought is maybe if someone post on a old posting it can come up on the front page or put a recomendation to do a search before posting and when they post it comes back to the front page or 2. I dont really care to see some older members that have taught me a lot leaving the board. That seems to be happening. Dinkin on otherpower for atleast 2 or so plus years years now and a lot of the questions I asked over the years are being reasked quite often.  I dont think people asking for donations or handouts should be front page items. Say whay ya want .JB Nevada

[TomW]

JB;

Amen. As everyone probably knows and are tired of hearing I wholeheartedly agree.

T

[Demetri]

Agreed.

Demetri

[debequechute]

On the matter of repetitive posts, putting the search box at the top of the page instead of at the end of a long list of posts might be a good start. Out of sight, out of mind as they say.

[wpowokal]

How about a abrieviated form of FAQ say one word followed by links ie Bateries http://www.acs.comcen.com.au/batteries.html

OK so this does not solve the above metioned but may give ppl more info to reserch before posting.

regards Allan

[elvin1949]

i agree

need to do something

elvin

[MelTx]

 

           Hello.

Does the Inventor or the newby BUY the inventions that are made? A lot of people dont much about gennys or electricty in general, but they are willing to try.And that where we all started,we were willing to try.If you scare off all the newbys by making them feel like redundant dummys,who you going to talk to? After a while all you will have left is looking at the mirror and talking to yourself, that is a well known princpal of human nature.New thinking stimulates the old way of doing things.

       When I first as questions,some answers were, GO GET AN EDUCATION FOOL and things like that.How ever some guys were willing to give a civilized reponse,and I thank you.Isnt this supposed to be a fun hobby ?...... And of course to the men working on the multi-million dollar rigs, what do you think the back yard- shade tree genny builders look like. And I thank you for your help ....

                                       Frankenbuger

[DanB]

My opinion lies somewhere inbetween the points of veiw I see expressed here.

I challenge anybody to show me a discussion board where new members show up and dont ask the same questions over and over!!  The topic of discussion here is not all that broad.  If there were not some new folks asking the same questions over and over again, I think the board would slow way down, and our solutions to "old" problems might stop advancing.

Search can help - moving the link or making it larger might help, but it will not solve the problem.  Often times, there will be new ideas and opinions - and answers to questions which will not come up in search.  This is the nature of discussion boards - its a community (a rather big one with about 2000 members), the same topics will be discussed over and over.  This is not new.  Check out the link to our old board! - same stuff, although many of us have learned a bit since then and would probably answer some questions differently now.  Thats been... um - since the old board shut down, about a year and a half!

New folks are welcome here.  its always good manners to do a bit of research before blindly posting to the board... most do.  Most "newbies" are actually folks who have been lurking here, reading and watching for a long time.  I often see repetitive postings, and often I choose not to reply - knowing that someone else might hop in and do it!  Usually they do.  

Regarding folks asking for grant money.. etc...  I think its a bit hard to judge.  I moved that to Classifieds, where it probably belongs.  I folks like that deserve the the benifit of the doubt, Im willing to leave stuff like that on the front page for perhaps a day..

(I think I moved that now to display only in section).

Soon we'll be upgrading the board so that only the more popular postings appear on the front page.  There are a few ways to do this - we're not totallly settled on exactly how yet, but it'll probably involve folks voting stories to the front page.  

Opinions vary - and when there are 2000+ members in a community, I suspect they always will.  As I see it though, the folks here, and the content that gets posted is better than ever.  I think one only has to click on the link to the "old otherpower board" to varify that.  As time goes on we'll continue to upgrade and make little changes as we see fit, but we tend to do that slowly and carefully (perhaps more so than some would like)... we also have lots of other projects going on and time/funds for the board are somewhat limited.

We definitely appreciate everyones contribution here, it's been quite amazing to me how innovative, helpful, and productive everyone here is.  What a fun place...  Thanks!!

[TomW]

Mel / Frank;

All of what you say may well be true.

However, does the fact that someone is either too stupid or too lazy to research things mean that the people of this board have a requirement to spoon feed them information? I think not!

3 or 4 years ago I did not know a thing about solar or wind electric power generation. You know what I did? I researched it both online and at the library and I spent many many hours trying to find information. Only after that failed did I come into this forum and ask questions that I was truly unable to find the answers to. Not like many people who just say they have searched high and low but can't find the answer. It is particularly irritating when the answer to the question is one of the top 4 hits on google.

I believe it is simple laziness and the desire to get quick answers with no effort on the part of the questioner in many cases. I happen to have degrees in both Electronic and Computer Engineering and I worked hard to get both and it was not cheap, either. So excuse me if I have no sympathy for laziness.

I am completely willing to share everything I know with nearly anyone. I am just not willing to spoon feed information to stupid or lazy people.

Anyway thats my response to your concern about scaring off the newbies. We all started someplace and most of us worked hard to get the knowledge we have so I have no problem with telling people to do a little work and come back when they have sensible questions.

The most scary thing i see lately is absolutely unworkable ideas submitted as useful information and nobody will challenge the false information because they are too nice or they fear getting labeled as a curmudgeon or mean. Well I have and will challenge these false "facts" whenever I can because I hate seeing folks waste time, resources and energy on unworkable ideas submitted by clueless folks who fit the description "Its not what he knows to be true but what he knows to be true that just ain't so"

I guess it comes down to whether or not we want to see this forum flourish as a usable resource or become the dumbed down online equivalent of "USA Today" and written at the 4th grade level. And, being civilized does not require a person to be nice regardless of the situation or to remain silent when you have a differing opinion. Truly civilized people would be up front and honest and not use deception to further their goals. Ohh well I am probably wasting electrons typing this out but there you have it.

Just another 2 cents of mine.

T

[hvirtane]

Tom: I happen to have degrees in both Electronic and Computer Engineering and I worked hard to get both and it was not cheap, either. So excuse me if I have no sympathy for laziness.

The thing is that most of the people living in

this world are not rich enough to get such

degrees. It is not the laziness,

but the poverty of the people I think,

which mostly prevent people to get such degrees.

As well I think that for the most of

the people, who are really

in the need of this knowledge,

Internet search is too costly, too.

For example in Nepal

(, which is one of my

favorite countries in the world,

and full of very capable handicrafts people)

using the Net one hour costs more

than eating one week.

I've got some degrees, too, but I've

realized that in most cases university

degrees don't help much to build yourself

renewable energy things.

Actually I think

that almost everything,

which I've learnt

I did not learn at the university or in school,

but by reading and researching myself.

I did learn some maths

at the university,

but to do something

with mathematics I learnt

mainly myself.

I've learnt a lot from people,

who never studied at any universities.

The best handicraft man,

I ever have worked with,

cannot read or write any language.

Also my late father

never went to any school.

But he could count better than I.

He also could build

much better buildings, sledges,

ovens etc. than I.

I think that for this forum

to be able to stay useful,

such questions which many

of old members of forum

have seen many times,

must be let to be asked again and again.

But I think that also

the FAQ section should

be developed.

I think that we should for example

develop a file,

how to make a basic

dual rotor alternator.

Or should we only have a link

for the file of Hugh?

I just have been in the progress

to write such a file,

and will publish it soon in my diary.

I made it as a response for a question,

which came to my email from India or

from Pakistan.

(The guy has not answered to my question,

where he is from.)

- Hannu

[TomW]

Hannu;

I am only responding because you quoted my previous comment and I feel it is necessary to point out the following because of that.

Nothing personal, but I seem to recall you also having been in favor of allowing Mister Cool Pants to pollute this board with his mean, misleading and vicious posts with no intervention when he was disrupting things daily. Apparently I do not have your level of compassion or resistance to abuse.

Point taken on the cost of education and internet access as well as the fact that education does not equal knowledge.

I still maintain it is not my duty to make up for the shortcomings of others whether it is their fault or not. It only seems reasonable to me that new [or old] users at least make an effort to post clear questions when they have actually tried honestly to seek the answers.

There is and likely always will be a large gap between those who live in developing countries and those who live in [so called] developed countries. Sorry, but I do not have the answer to this problem nor do I feel it is my responsibility to level the playing field such as it is. If I were well enough off financially I would likely consider traveling and assisting with developing some of these systems where they do not have the resources I enjoy as an American of modest resources.

Anyway, good points which I could argue either side of which do not really change the issues of where this board is going.

I guess it kind of comes down to one fairly simple question:

Do we dumb things down to the level of the least informed or do we try to maintain a reasonable level of usability and information for the broadest cross section of users? I am not an inhuman monster or unaware of the issues of poverty I just don't see where it has any real bearing on this board.

As far as the FAQ is concerned I really don't think very many folks actually read the things. Proof of this can be seen in many posts on this board asking questions that are explicitly covered in the FAQ area we have now.

One nice thing about not being an editor here now is I can say exactly what I think without it being seen as some type of "official" statement. This is good in my mind.

Just honest opinions from a guy with no diplomacy skills.

T

[truman]

It is your right to keep your information to yourself or to help others, I remember on ocasionally asking stupid Questions which didn't seem so stupid at the time I just thought you guys might get a chuckle over some of the silly stuff people ask and point them in the right direction.  I am now the proud owner of electric motor repair and sunspots thanks to two very helpful and patient guys and they know who they are.  I think they saved me alot of time by not wasting time and showing the right path I also seem to remember alot of useful information from you Tom this board is like an online college and its free of charge you just have to reinvest info you have learned to the new people its great! don't get bitter Tom just take a brake everybody needs one. I am very happy I found this board.

[wpowokal]

Having retired from power stations a great number of years at the last station I entered this station as a trainee and finished (22 years later) having trained many "newbies".

The first thing I would tell new arrivals was "there is only one silly question and that's the one you don't ask"

How silly a question seems to an individual is relative to that individuals level of understanding, among other things.

This board is to my knowledge unique in what we can learn and contribute. While some old hands may vacate for a while other will fill the void, frequently we find that knowlegable people are suppressed by aparently all knowing others(this is not a critercisum).

regards Allan

[Electric Ed]

"whether or not we want to see this forum flourish as a usable resource or become the dumbed down online equivalent of - - - "

Tom, there may be nothing that can be done about it. I think what we are seeing is a manifestation of the "dumbing down" of North American society generally.

I have seen a great difference in the initiative and industry displayed by my electrical apprentice students between 1966, when I started teaching, and my retirement two years ago.

Granted, there were a few "slugs" then, but now a majority of them show no interest in learning anything. They just want the answers to the test questions.

All great civilizations rise and fall, and I think we are witnessing the decline of this one.

Electric Ed

[TomW]

Ed;

All great civilizations rise and fall, and I think we are witnessing the decline of this one.

Sadly true I noticed the same thing in my last go round of college classes. I guess it doesn't mean we have to bow down to it and cannot resist it, however.

I guess my approach will be to simply ignore the lazy questions and address the ones I can answer from experience. I guess I also tend to like to argue [read debate] things I see as unworkable or just plain wrong but for now I will just let folks find out for themselves that you cannot solder aluminum with standard solder and your weller iron or that passing air through water will not raise its moisture content contrary to what has been posted here.  

Anyway good point

Cheers.

TomW

[Dave B]

Tom,

  It is very obvious you are bitter about leaving the board as editor which is unfortunate. I received helpful information from you in the past and witnessed your ability to be respectful to all posters new and old. I'm sure it was difficult at times and to a large extent I'm sure it was because of your efforts that we saw a very clean and informative board. Please take a hard look at your recent postings and again as an editor. I hope very much that your comments of "stupid and lazy" and associated slams are only the result of blowing steam from past frustration of being editor. It is however no excuse to now use the board exactly the same as some of those which I'm sure you had edited in the past. I hope you stick around and can relax to enjoy this side of the board. I have learned much from many including yourself and would miss your contribution of knowledge but certainly not the harsh and disrespectful comments above. Thank you,  Dave B.

[elvin1949]

tomw

i have noticed over the last 40 or so yr's.

there are no limit's to the hights stupity can rise to.

later

elvin

[Wolvenar]

I am in agreement with TomW and others opinions on society in general being dumbed down, and well, mostly lazy.

I feel so privileged to be of the younger generation and be able to proudly say I am not ( or try not to be ) intellectually numb.  I strive now to not succumb to the complacency that people today seem to display. Seems today everyone is looking for the fast easy buck , and to monetize ever thing possible to its fullest extreme.

As a child I grew up with "older values", you worked hard for what you get and you don't expect things given to you.  My grandfather always would push me to discover things for yourself, and not to rely on handouts from others.

Well as I went through school, older teachers retired and new younger teachers replaced them , I saw  a very fast and drastic change in the quality of education, now  I forcefully refuse to allow my kids to attend any public school system  My kids are being home taught, despite several friends of mine are teacher in the local school. The school system is so messed up to try not to be target of an sue happy society, that the morals and the stuff that really means anything is no longer part of the school system, and many parents never take time, or are incapable of teaching  these things.

I worked and taught in a college up until a bit over a year ago, I found most students were there to party, or just get that sheepskin, with as little work as possible.

Its a real treat to meet someone there really wanting to learn, and not afraid of hard work. In fact most teachers at the college I worked at really didnt know how to handle a student like that.

Basically to sum this up, I'm quite disturbed to see the downward spiral of common sense and the will to work. I cannot tolerate sitting by idle without fighting to keep resources for those actualy willing and eager to learn and discover for themselves.  

I worry about the route this board has seemed to slip towards recently, and hope for a reasonable solution to head this off.

I hope this place does not fall to the slurry of misinformation, and overabundance of rehashed, information that burries the truely unique and brilliant. It would frustrate many, finding yet another site that closely mirrors the unreputable places on the net, even if it may not be so.

I believe much of the reason I ever came back to this place and stuck around is that it stood out, by cutting the crap, and allowing a place that could exchange information in a positive, intellectual way.

Wolv

[Wolvenar]

Well, I cannot speak for TomW, or Kurt  but from what I witnessed there are many things that were kind of behind the scenes, or not very obvious to most, that gave good reason for TomW's statements. I do not believe Tom had said anyhting to be hostil or directly disrespectful.

Take into account TomW spent countless hours monitoring this board, viewing much more than most any other average user.

He would try to control trolls, blatent profiteering, floods, and any number of attacks.

Both TomW and Kurt would be subject to attacks , via e-mail bombing, disrespectfull posts, personaly attacking either of them, and numberous other things, including using religion based slang attacks (in effect if someone were to call me a satan worshiper) or proving theories when put on the spot with answers involving religion,  or or bordering on threat. All this, for "censoring", or otherwise changing, moving, hiding or deleting a post that REALLY does not belong.

As a side thought, religion is a personal matter and all should be free to follow his/her own but not forced onto others.

These attacks were just basically proof that the person subject to the attack  had good reason, for whatever they did as a editor. If someone would resort to these tactics it sorta proves they cant handle a resonable and intelligent conversation.

Again, I canot speak for anyone, but when you spend the amount of time reading as many posts as one of the editors have, carried the burdons of being an editor, without the ability to speak your mind, plus to be targets as such, most reasonable persons would have similar opinions.

Many knowlegdable persons here have gained that knowledge through a LOT of hard work, and experience,  and many love to spread the knowledge. But even I have witnessed the decline of questions and responces that are thought out and asked in a semi researched and intelligent way. This puts off the impression of just being a user, or trying to get a free or easy ride.

Kinda rubs some people the wrong way

Personaly I do not think that a lot of the innocent questions are the biggest problem anyone has raised, though it does after time become an annoyance. To me it's more the responces from those who THINK they know everything , and are argumentive and destructive to an civil intelligent exchange of information. I have seen much information posted that is just wrong , and when faced with a correction get hostile.  

Flaming is just not cool here...

Anyways just how I see it .

Wolv

[juiced]

... not to sound like a smart ass, but even this post is fairly repetitive.

  You can find one on any discussion board that has been around for a while.

  I think FAQs are the way to go. Use an active search funtion in the FAQ, so it displays KNOWN TRUE info about the topic at hand, + a few recent posts with those keywords.

             I also think that while the guys who have been around a board for years might feel like they contribute and never get anything out of it, maybe they should realise that the people they help generally do not forget it.