Author Topic: Dutch government set PV application back 10 yrs.  (Read 427 times)

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JeroenH

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Dutch government set PV application back 10 yrs.
« on: July 07, 2004, 12:57:35 AM »
2003 was a great year for small scale PV in the Netherlands. You could apply for an incentive which paid for 25 - 50% for your PV installation, resulting in 10-15yr payback times. Which was great. Demand was however much higher then the government anticipated, and at the end of 2003 they decided that is was costing them too much money and shut it down completely. Shutting it down without warning, I might add, letting some people who had already bought PV systems hanging out to dry.


Removing the incentives increased payback times to like 35+ yrs (also thanks to our 19% VAT), so needless to say, demand for small scale PV systems plummeted to something like 10%. This not only made some healthy PV companies ga bankrupt but also stopped the deployment of PV systems dead in its tracks.


As for as I can tell there is no 'normal' (normal in my book) political party which says the incentives should return, so I don't know what normal citizens on an average salary can do to get a PV system for a normal price. So I am just buying efficient stuff (fridge, CF lights etc.) but my wish to produce my own clean energy is growing.  


I am frustrated by my government which doesn't seem to know what is best for the people they serve.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2004, 12:57:35 AM by (unknown) »

tecker

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Re: Dutch government set PV application back 10 yr
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2004, 01:19:51 AM »


  Red ink it's not just for break fest anymore

« Last Edit: July 07, 2004, 01:19:51 AM by tecker »

tecker

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Re: Dutch government set PV application back 10 yr
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2004, 01:32:26 AM »


 Sorry I meant to add that now you have to get creative search for grants not just country wide but world wide . Try to find a list of all on the program and bring them to a round table of sorts  and factor out the gov pivot man  bringing the interested parties into a private sector interest  group . This will give some incentive back and put the utilities back on the defensive . You can't expect the gov to abandon thier

main squeze they don't know any better . The main thing now is to keep the folk that are invested out of the drink .  
« Last Edit: July 07, 2004, 01:32:26 AM by tecker »

JeroenH

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Re: Dutch government set PV application back 10 yr
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2004, 01:43:55 AM »
Sorry I meant to add that now you have to get creative search for grants not just country wide but world wide .


Where could I get a grant outside of the Netherlands?


This will give some incentive back and put the utilities back on the defensive .


I don't think the utility companies are the problem, if you already have a grid intertied PV system you get quite a reasonable amount of money for your kWh's (slightly above the normal price you buy their kWh's for, € 0,1625 where I live). It's the grants for buying the system that's killing the Dutch PV industry.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2004, 01:43:55 AM by JeroenH »

wdyasq

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Different names
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2004, 05:09:04 AM »
When an individual takes money he doesn't deserve and gives it away he is a theif.  When a government does it, it is called other names.  Citizens like their government to take by force money from others and grant it to causes they like.


In the US many of the state governments have "domestic" electricity rates set to subsidize the residential users.  This lowers the observed cost of power to the homeowner and increases his/her/its' cost of goods.  After all, a successful business must pass all costs, including taxes, to the consumer.


The REA - "Rural Electrification Agency", subsidized the expansion of centrally generated electricty throughout the United States.  This essencially eliminated the research, development and manufacturing of small, self sufficient and efficient electrical systems in the US.


I don't expect any government to subsidize my lifestyle or energy use.  I will take advantage of any incentive that does not have conditions attached.


I also expect governments to continue to control the masses by any method they feel they can.  It is the nature of the beast.  I will understand it is a game of control and power.


Ron

« Last Edit: July 07, 2004, 05:09:04 AM by wdyasq »
"I like the Honey, but kill the bees"

drdongle

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Re: Dutch set PV application back 10 yrs.
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2004, 05:33:28 AM »
I have to agree 100% when you get handouts from the government you are a slave to the government.What the government gives, it can take away. Better to bite the bullet and buy/ build your own system. Government often makes extravagant demands on the recipients of its largess, demanding that many hoops be jumped through. Some businesses have been know to take advantage of that as well to make excessive profits. Better to be free of such encumbrances.


Carpe Vigor


Dr.D

« Last Edit: July 07, 2004, 05:33:28 AM by drdongle »

finnsawyer

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Re: Dutch govt set PV application back 10 yrs
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2004, 08:39:46 AM »
So the government acts like a bull in a china shop, lurching from position to position.  What's new about that?  Logically they should have reduced the subsidy until demand met supply (of money).  Considering that the utility companies pay as much for PV generated power as they charge for their own power, it would appear that the PV industry is not viable in the Netherlands.  Makes me wonder about the U S where power costs around 8.5 cents per KWhr and they pay only around 3 cents.  Of course we don't have a VAT.  I feel that a payback time in excess of 20 years is too long, mainly because equipment wears out.  


The people the government serves are the bureaucrats not the citizens.  That's why revolutions occur from time to time.  For various reasons I have come to the conclusion that you can't trust the government.  And, since most of the citizenry seem to like the status quo (high taxes; coddling socialism), I don't hold out much hope for change.  Since this is turning into a rant, I'll close by suggesting you get together with like minded people and make your own systems.  What's to stop you, for instance, from making your own generator or windmill.  Think outside the box.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2004, 08:39:46 AM by finnsawyer »

JeroenH

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Re: Dutch govt set PV application back 10 yrs
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2004, 11:10:53 AM »
I feel that a payback time in excess of 20 years is too long, mainly because equipment wears out.  


Exactly. Your panels might last that long (10% power loss?) but your inverter will almost certainly not. I'd say a 10 year payback time would be a good goal for now. But I'll just have to wait for my income and the power prices to rise.


What's to stop you, for instance, from making your own generator or windmill.


Well, my neighbours, for instance. And the company I rent my house from. The Netherlands is a country in which a lot of people live on a relatively small piece of land. Some people might even call it crowded or cramped. One result of that is that you cannot just put tall noisy structures in your backyard like a wind turbine. Also for that reason PV would by ideal here, for it has all kind of advantages that I do not have to explain here.


When I move (maybe in 5 years) I'll certainly try to find a house which has more possibilities for home-built clean energy generation. Maybe next to a stream or a house with a large garden near the sea (lots of wind).

« Last Edit: July 07, 2004, 11:10:53 AM by JeroenH »

tecker

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Re: Dutch government set PV application back 10 yr
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2004, 08:12:53 PM »


   I will research the grants for you , Don't take what I said about the utilities

too seriously . How many people are invested and what are the brands of equipment

that have been purchased . a dialog is hard to maintain this forum is not about political change It's about making juice . Let's talk equip . Let's take the $ out and make what you need from scratch.  

« Last Edit: July 07, 2004, 08:12:53 PM by tecker »

finnsawyer

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Re: Dutch govt set PV application back 10 yrs
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2004, 09:05:54 PM »
Ironical that the country famous for its windmills won't let you put up a windmill.  Is the country doing anything with wind power?  I feel that it's much more practical then PV.  The cost of panels here is greater than the value of the electric power they produce over their life.  There is also the disposal problem at the end of their life.  Has anyone figured out how much of it's power your country could get from wind power?  I'll bet there are sites where they could be placed.  It may also be possible to reduce the noise (bent tips for example).  Maybe the government needs a push.  Anyway, good luck.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2004, 09:05:54 PM by finnsawyer »

BT Humble

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The many names of Dole money
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2004, 11:14:23 PM »
I've now moved to my little 25 acre patch of land:


http://www.geocities.com/za2bb/farmlet/index.html


As part of the requirements for subdivision, the chap I bought the land from had to put a power pole in one corner.  I asked the electricity company how much it would cost to connect to the grid, and the answer was about $8,000 (Australian) for a transformer at the top of the pole, and a meter box at the bottom.  That would have earned me the right to pay a quarterly electricity bill.


Then I researched government grants for renewable energy systems.  My pride would have suffered if I'd had to apply for welfare like that, so I wasn't too unhappy when I discovered that the requirements were:



  • New components used throughout
  • Installed by an accredited (ie licensed) RE installer;
  • Installed at your principle place of residence;
  • Remain installed there for 5 years.


Since my principle place of residence is still officially the house in town, I wanted to install the system myself, and I wanted to use recycled components, I failed on all counts.  So I went out and bought the parts myself:


Item                            unit cost   qty   subtotal

Shell SR140 solar panels        $1200.00     4   $4800.00

Solar regulator                 $ 480.00     1   $ 480.00

1800W inverter                  $ 750.00     1   $ 750.00

BIG used deep-cycle batteries   $  60.00    24   $1440.00

Cables, fuses, etc.             $ 250.00     1   $ 250.00

Solar panel racks               $ 100.00     2   $ 200.00

                                       TOTAL     $7920.00


I'll be adding the wind turbine soon (it seems a shame to waste the 5-month-long southerly gale I get over the winter), but the solar system is plenty big enoughfor my electrical needs.


http://www.geocities.com/za2bb/solar/index.html


The moral of the story?  Err, I dunno.  That's just what I did, and it was mostly out of spite. ;-)


BTH

« Last Edit: July 07, 2004, 11:14:23 PM by BT Humble »

JeroenH

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Re: Dutch govt set PV application back 10 yrs
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2004, 02:04:19 AM »
Ironical that the country famous for its windmills won't let you put up a windmill.


Well, it's not the government or something. There are lots of farmers who put up small-to-medium-size wind turbines, and I've read that while they need a permit and have to comply with some safety rules the process is straightforward and easy to do. They have the space for it....


In my situation my neighbours' houses are connected to mine and so are their backyards. I imagine I would never be able to get a permit to erect a wind turbine in a densely populated area like where I live. I just might get away with a small Savonius attached to my chimney or something (which I am going to try), but that's not going to put much of a dent in my power consumption.


The cost of panels here is greater than the value of the electric power they produce over their life.


The cost, yes. The energy, no. It still makes sense, energy-wise. Mono- and polycrystalline panels typically recover their invested energy in about 4 years (depends on their use and location of course), while amorphous panels usually recover it in about 2 years (but have a much shorter overall life).


That's whey I feel that, at least initially, grants and incentives are needed. That way, demand increases, production increases and if I remember my high school economy lessons correctly that should lead to lower prices.


There is also the disposal problem at the end of their life.


I should think that nearly all of the panels mass should be able to be recycled. The almuminium frame can be melted and re-used, as can the glass panels. I don't know about the silicon, but I guess the electronics indusrty could use that.


Has anyone figured out how much of it's power your country could get from wind power?


Certainly. In our pieces of land reclaimed from the sea ("polders") where the land is flat and open there are lots of wind turbines. Usually large ones, 1MW and up. There are plans to put up a field of turbines in the North Sea where the wind is blowing even harder. There is some opposition from the shipping people (understandable, accidents etc.) and the environmentalists (which is beyond me, they worry about bird strikes etc.). And there are people who think wind turbines are ugly and just don't want to see them. We even have a word for that: "horizonvervuiling" (literally: "horizon-pollution").


Still, only about 2-3% of our power needs are met by wind energy, the rest is mainly natural gas (the Netherlands sit on a large natural gas field), some oil and a minute amount of solar energy. I think there is much potential for wind energy, but as the mainstream political parties are not interested in it I don't see large-scale application soon.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2004, 02:04:19 AM by JeroenH »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Dutch govt set PV application back 10 yrs
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2004, 02:14:41 PM »
The cost of panels here is greater than the value of the electric power they produce over their life.


The cost, yes. The energy, no. It still makes sense, energy-wise. Mono- and polycrystalline panels typically recover their invested energy in about 4 years (depends on their use and location of course), while amorphous panels usually recover it in about 2 years (but have a much shorter overall life).


And the energy cost may be overstated, since some silicon cell technology recycles leftover refined silicon from semiconductor manufacturing, which otherwise would be discarded (since it's more energy-intensive to re-refine it than make more from scratch).


(Even if they didn't pay off in raw energy, though, there are remote locations where they pay off both in energy and money - because the alternatives are fuel-driven generators and running an expensive transmission line.  Both also have large energy costs for construction and operation.)


That's whey I feel that, at least initially, grants and incentives are needed. That way, demand increases, production increases and if I remember my high school economy lessons correctly that should lead to lower prices.


Higher initially, lower long-term.


I just might get away with a small Savonius attached to my chimney or something (which I am going to try), but that's not going to put much of a dent in my power consumption.


Don't hook it to a BRICK chimbney.  The vibration will eventually take the chimbney apart.  Mounting it on the house frame or a metal chimney, or even guying a tower to the house may be a noise and vibration problem.  (But if you make it LOOK like it's guyed to the house when it's actually supported by guy wires to the ground with a slight gap you should be fine.  B-))

« Last Edit: July 08, 2004, 02:14:41 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

kirk

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Re: Dutch gvt set PV application back 10 yrs.
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2004, 06:59:22 PM »
seems to me they could have at least waived the VAT on the solar purchase.


I don't know about Europe but my observations of business and politics in the US are that the ruling class are very opposed to distributed energy. Energy is something they will sell to you -- not for you to own. Follow the illustrious career of the scientist from Hanford --  Mike McCormick -- (also known as "Mr Atomic Energy") who was placed in charge of The Solar Energy Demonstration Act and you will see it was big energy at its worst. They essentially killed solar energy in the US.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2004, 06:59:22 PM by kirk »

finnsawyer

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Re: Dutch govt set PV application back 10 yrs
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2004, 09:37:59 AM »
Very educational.  I live at 47 degrees north just south of Lake Superior.  You're farther north than that.  While some people around here do have small solar setups, I feel it doesn't make much sense except in special cases.  I favor wind power.  Of course the fact that I'm sited on forty acres in a relatively windy area may make a difference.  I guess it's just a tough call for you.  Your government made the wrong move.  As I mentioned they should of just reduced the subsidies until a better balance was achieved.  I do believe that quieter wind systems will be developed in time.  I've got some ideas myself, but finding time to work on them is a problem.  Anyway this is interesting stuff.


Hey, what about those hybrid buses with the electric motors on the wheels?  What happened to them?  I thought your country was doing it.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2004, 09:37:59 AM by finnsawyer »

Jules

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...set PV application back 10 yrs.
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2004, 03:09:08 PM »
hi


This is a good thread - and I'd like to add my pennyworth.


The Netherlands is pretty much on the same lattitude as England - and home user power needs would approximately equate given a similar density of population and mean house/garden sizes.


I'm pretty much in the same position.  Actively considering wind turbine installation, but given the proximity of neighbours and houses am unlikely EVER to get planning permission to erect a turbine to cover even a substantial portion of my energy needs.


We, too, have a system of grants ( http://www.clear-skies.org [the Clear Skies initiative]> ) but this appears to be a limited amount of 'seeding' money and not a long-term household renewable energy policy.  And yes, we have to use 'registered' technologies and 'official' installers.


Rant:



The government OUGHT to subsidise domestic renewables - just as they subsidise nuclear, coal and gas (yes, all those 'hidden' subsidies like nuclear de-commissioning, health compensation for workers in coal mines, tax allowances on R&D). No subsidies for domestic users, if applied, should mean no subsidies for the utilities.  Big business wins, as usual - it just ain't going to happen...


All the 'small' government people out there may resent their tax dollars/euros/pounds being ripped from their pockets to subsidise ANYTHING.  But we've signed up to international treaties whereby we've got to reduce carbon pollution by significant amounts and this is being achieved, in the main, by subsidies to the utilities.  So make it fair, subsidise the household renewable industry!



End of Rant


But I would suggest you look at [http://www.windsave.com] [windsave] > - a couple or three of these units attached to your property would reduce your average daily bill by a margin - I also have some information that these [small units] may be acceptable to the local planning authorities as they attach to the house in much the same way as satellite dishes and, apparently, are not too dissimilar in size.


I'm also interested in PV and heat pump technologies (don't need much backyard to dig a vertical hole).


Either way, with or without subsidies, I'll get something on-stream soon.  Even if I just get a few egg-laying chickens and reduce the carbon expended on food miles!


Cheers


Jules

« Last Edit: July 09, 2004, 03:09:08 PM by Jules »

walsdos

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Re: ...set PV application back 10 yrs.
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2004, 04:46:05 AM »
Hey Jules,

 Just tried www.wind save.come & only got a blue "windave Ltd" page & blank panel. What gives, has their shilling expired in the meter?Have you looked into making Bio Diesel under the sink or methane from chicken manure,or maybe even your own incinerator,high efficiency of course. Perhaps if it was disguised as a model traction engine the neighbours would be more supportive.Good luck.

Walsdos
« Last Edit: July 19, 2004, 04:46:05 AM by walsdos »