Author Topic: Cross-posting --'free energy' for off-grid living  (Read 1361 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

(unknown)

  • Guest
Cross-posting --'free energy' for off-grid living
« on: September 17, 2004, 02:39:40 PM »
This is DanF's opinion on Free Energy topics. We are happy to provide the forum for folks who are interested in discussing it, but we have set things so that Free Energy topics appear only in their section, and not on the board front page. Fair enough, eh? Discuss it all you wish, but we want the front page uncluttered, and it's our board which costs us hundreds of dollars per month to maintain.


Free Energy = Overunity = perpetual motion machines

TANSTAAFL!

There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch!

(Robert Heinlein, RIP)


My purpose in posting all this is that, us folks that live off the grid do

not usually have much money, or time, available. We are in general ripe

pickins for free energy scams. Caveat Emptor.


Unfortunately there is no current technology that can efficiently convert

mass directly to energy, and vice versa, other than on Star Trek. Us folks

that live off the grid have to rely on things like solar panels and wind

turbines and rivers and gasoline generators to do that for us (not to

mention the oil, gasoline, coal, and nuclear power used by the utilities,

which we don't have access to).


Concepts like the zero-point field, Dennis Lee magnetic generators, and

other "over-unity" ideas make entertaining reading. Some might even end up

working in the future, and show that the laws of physics might be bent.

The zero-point field shows special promise, and I don't doubt that it

exists--but the issue is, how much power can it provide to me? And WHEN? I

need power NOW or else it's back to candles. What power source can I

install for my house NOW so that I don't have to read books by kerosene

lamp? I can't make power from any of these concepts, today...not even

close. All I see is opportunities to spend lots of money on 'dealerships'

for machines that don't work yet.


And I'm way too busy fixing fence, maintaining my truck, fixing my

driveway so I don't have to walk up it, adjusting the valve lash on my

backup gasoline generator to prepare for the next snowstorm (any time

now), chasing the USFS cows off my land, pumping water from my spring to

my cistern, dodging irritable bull moose, plowing the snow off my road,

keeping coyotes from eating my cats who are eating my mice and packrats,

trying to pick the wild raspbarries before the bears do, and trying to

grow vegetables to eat at 8200 feet elevation. Oh yeah, and working 40 hours per week too.


I can build or buy solar panels or a wind turbine NOW--they have a real

source of power (the sun or the wind). In fact I'm helping to put on a

seminar this weekend in Fort Collins CO for folks that want to build wind

turbines from scratch, for cheap, to power their remote homesteads.


I've never once met a Free Energy proponent that lived off the grid. Those

of us that DO live off-grid need real electricity from real sources, and

we need it NOW. We don't make it from coal or oil, either. And we (or, at

least I) say -- Either crap or get out of the outhouse (have you ever

used one of THOSE?). If you can give or sell me a overunity machine that

can charge my battery bank from nothing but the 'ether' then I'll buy it,

even if it costs more than my pickup truck. No takers yet on this offer, I

wonder why?


Until then, I think free energy proponents should try living off the grid,

or at least do their homework. You can learn lots about physics from your

local library or the internet....and see why at least in AD 2004 you need

a real source of energy to produce electricity. Solar, wind, hydro, and

fossil fuels are REAL. over-unity is, so far, science fiction. Not a

single overunity machine has been proved to work, EVER. If it did, the

inventor would be rich beyond belief, just from prizes, not to mention

profits. But it's always a "conspiracy" against the poor inventor....come

up here to the off-grid mountains and see how much sympathy the conspiracy

theory will get you..."hey bud, you want me to plow your driveway or not? I thought you needed to drive to town to get food?"


No offense meant to anyone my this posting. I am always open to ideas. Try

living off-grid in remote area for a year and I bet your overunity ideas

will change to "how can I get more light to read my overunity book? --

this candle really sucks and my eyes are hurtin'."


DanF

« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 02:39:40 PM by (unknown) »

chux0r

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 56
Re: Cross-posting --'free energy' for off-grid liv
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2004, 03:11:23 PM »
Bravo... I hate seeing folks who believe in the three basic laws of thermodynamics decried as "closed minded."  I mean, all the evidence that we have points to the fact that the law of conservation of matter and energy is true.  I can also understand how being bombarded with people saying "but no, I can create energy, so everything that science knows is wrong" every day can make one weary, and not necessarily polite after refuting it 1000 million times.


People just need to understand... the law of conservation will save you a lot of time you might spend making things that don't work!  You can spend this time doing things that DO work.  For that, I am certainly grateful, because in my youth I had notions of perpetual energy.  (None of the plans seemed to work.)  It turns out the wealth of scientific knowledge that humankind possesses is really handy.


And science also gives us a toolkit of things that do work.  We can change kinetic energy into electrical energy.  We can change electrical energy into light, or heat, or back into kinetic energy.  We can change light energy into heat, or electrical... lots of options, here, so don't knock it.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 03:11:23 PM by chux0r »

jacquesm

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 467
8200 ft ?
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2004, 03:42:32 PM »
No shortage of wind there !



other than that ? Amen. thanks.



And I'd visit your seminar just to say hi if it wasn't so expensive.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 03:42:32 PM by jacquesm »

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4019
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: Cross-posting --'free energy' for off-grid liv
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2004, 03:54:26 PM »
I agree that discussing perpetual motors can be fun and entertaining at times. But like some things in life, I take perp-motor designs with a grain of salt. As far as we know none exist today that work. I really support the guy that tries to make and learn something on his own. Sometimes I will see someone working on something, and say to myself "oh that wont work" but say nothing(providing safety checks out), why? To me its like watching a movie and someone tells you the ending before you experience it, and it wrecks the movie for ya. But this casual attitude can depend on the situation, the things that go on, with these "dealerships" are quite rediculess and often times quite sad... Scams of any sort should be exposed. This process should not target itself on the innocent effort of someone tring to learn things.


This is a tuff one. I enjoy this board and all those who frequent it. Dan's thanks for what you do.


-JW    

« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 03:54:26 PM by JW »

Norm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1841
  • Country: us
  • Ohio's sharpest corner
'free energy' for off-grid living
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2004, 04:02:02 PM »
Right on Dan ...back when I was 2yrs old in 1933...an poverty was considered almost upper-class we moved out to White City (population 300) a coal mine provided power about 3 cents a kilowatt I can remember the time my Dad hollered because the light bill was over a dollar for the month this was our only utility...coal was free except for the hauling ...some kids picked coal from the slack pile for their families hauling it home in home-made carts wheel-barrows, coaster-wagons etc. outhouse(free fertilizer for the garden) running water(tip pitcher and water will run) coffee about 10 cents a pound.


   Yikes! How much closer to free energy could you get??

    Just one of your windmills would have provided power for about 5 families???


                  ( :>) Norm

« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 04:02:02 PM by Norm »

Harry Luubovv

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 98
Re: 'free energy' for off-grid living
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2004, 06:31:52 PM »
Hi, it has been a time ........ but I am back, thanks to managements.


But first of all, no cannibalism allowed, so don't eat my head for what I say here !   -:)


I can sympathize with people who need IMMEDIATE AVAILABLE POWER because they are off grid. So Everyone knows, I am not hitting on the Dan's ideas of "Give me real power now and I can appreciate it !"


I would like to revert back to history and see if most of us are capable of reflecting a bit.


After people had tried for thousands of years for human flight, the majority of people in the world back then would condemn continuous experimentations of human flights, branding these triers "Crazy ` big waste of time ` too much time on their hands not knowing what to do with that .............." That was, mind you, after thousands of years' trying with nothing but failures evidenced .........


The New York Times especially ridiculed those who kept on trying to the extreme ! ! But the moment that real fight were to take place, NY Times ended offering huge grand apologies for their condemnations over the many years they operated ! !


I think history should teach us something, the established laws of physics is as I heard, written in chalks, not inscribed in stone ! We really should take a grain of salt when trying to interpret the meanings of law of physics. But unfortunately, most of us backyard scientists do like to take the unripen laws to the grave.


It was proven billions of time by law of physics that human were far too heavy to fly up there, only lighter-than-air items could fly, excepting birds of course, larger masses always will fall down and be "Glued down" by gravity, because masses attract gravity, or gravity attract masses, anyway we wished to put it. This was the theory at the time because we did not find a way to bypass the obstacles. Of course it is so easy today that we do not even think back about those hard trying times anymore, because anyone who knows how to manipulate "Center of gravity ` Venturi effect ` chord of lifting surfaces ` yaw and bank for controls", than presto, anyone can build a flying machine ! !


But during those trying times, if not for those relentlessly trying "Half cracked" backyarders, I think we will still be very primitive in our travels. Imagine, when it is snowing cats and dogs, 5 feet of snow freezing off your buns in New York, but there is an instant wonderland--Florida ! ! It only takes less than 3 hours to reach from NY to Fl so you can have a mini vacation when you got tired and drawn out from the snow, it is some relief isn't it ! This is what many people exact do, utilizing the convenience of flying machines today ! ! But imagine if those folks who kept on trying for human flight at that time, would simply give up trying because of the branding of names by those who preferred to do nothing themselves or those who even go as far as accusing others for "Wasting off materials" with their efforts, then we would still have to take perhaps almost 2 days of driving from & back to NY to reach Florida for that bit of intermediate relief from the cold ! ! All of these are benefits available for all, but I only state with an open mind that anyone should remember who caused these possibility today ! But most of us instead of trying for an open mind, quickly got into the seat of an airplane, minds wandering off to condemning some other experimenters again for "Wasting off resources" ! ! !


If I have offended anyone in this posting, I offer my apologies, not meant to, but I think, just the mere thought of saying someone else wastes off materials when he or she tries their bests, is unbecoming, I dare opine this far ! ! ! ! !


Then of course, we have scam artists of all sorts trying to rip the benefits off others by false announcements of perpetual successes, I dare to say that, none of anyone today has ever been successful of these machines, I will have to see one to belief one ! This is my stand about perpetual machines even though I am myself am one of those who tries, I am building many versions and types, of course none of them give practical energy as yet, but so was human flight at first, the first set of planes only got off the ground a few feet--No practical reason to ballyhoo about ! ! Then when they flew off finally, it was not of any sort of practical machinery neither because they broke down a lot-only suitable for sportsmen at the time, for fun. But should we be quick to condemn the idea only because it was not practical as yet ? ? ! Lighting up little 2 innocent LEDs' should not be branded "Practical" I agree, but there has got to be a start somewhere. Automobiles were not practical neither, every ten miles it broke down twenty times. Do you know that at the era of times, they always usually carry a mechanic onboard wherever they went ! Can you call those contraptions that they called "Cars" "Practical" ? ? Of course I won't classify them as such myself ! So they were so wrong then for continuing, the rightful thing for them to have done were to abandon the whole machinery idea and relied on horses alone for the sake of sticking to existing ideas, because it is safe. Because it "Felt comfortable" since they had already been in existence, right ! ! ! !


I thank the Dan's for making these discussions possible by way of these board of forums, and wish to especially thank those and encourage those who keep trying ! ! ! ! And also, those who hit Freddy and the others that hard should have apologized !


Have a day of merriment !

Your friends,

Harry Luubovv.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 06:31:52 PM by Harry Luubovv »

MattB

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 44
Re: Cross-posting --'free energy' for off-grid liv
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2004, 08:04:17 PM »
um... is my red 5 gallon gas can still over at you housse??
« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 08:04:17 PM by MattB »

tecker

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2183
Re: Cross-posting --'free energy' for off-grid liv
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2004, 08:22:32 PM »


   Alright Kook bandwidth is very cool I love you guys. May the bird of paradise protect you from technology . I promise to induce away from mainstream production fanatics .  

 

« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 08:22:32 PM by tecker »

laskey

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 55
Re: 'free energy' for off-grid living
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2004, 08:58:38 PM »
You know the thing that gets me here is that none of the things you mention defy the laws of thermo-dynamic.  Sure they were crazy ideas with no seeming practical uses, but they had real actual physics working for them.  None of them broke any physical laws, or even bent them, or even changed our understanding of things at the time they were invented...  Science knew those things could be done at the time, we just had to figure out how to make it happen.  There was no law against it.


You can't go by what average people know.  400 years ago people still "knew" the world was flat, even though over 2000 years ago it was proved to be round.


Cya,

Chris

« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 08:58:38 PM by laskey »

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4019
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: 'free energy' for off-grid living
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2004, 09:04:10 PM »
The Wrieght Brothers???


 Please forgive me guy's, I just could not resist. I have no idea who this guy is.


 But... -and im "paraphrasing" here-(from back in time of coarse) NO! Oreivel God Damn IT, I swear to God, IF i didnt need that shaft, id wack you over the head with it.


 Isnt family great;)


 Ya and some Metallica come's to mind.


-JW

« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 09:04:10 PM by JW »

jacquesm

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 467
Re: 'free energy' for off-grid living
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2004, 09:26:41 PM »
yeah, but you know, looking back that was pretty stupid :)



after all they already had cars, and going fast enough and hitting a bump send you flying. After that it was only a matter of degree.



Seriously, to compare the critics of todays over unity fanatics with the editors of newspapers one hundred years ago, and the Wright brothers with the aforementioned fanatics is stretching things a bit. The Wright brothers were actual scientists, in every sense of the word, using their knowledge to advance theories and then to test those theories with a series of scale models. By the time they reached the Kitty Hawk stage they had a pretty good idea that it was going to work. And in that one respect they differed greatly from the over unity crowd.



« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 09:26:41 PM by jacquesm »

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4019
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: 'free energy' for off-grid living
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2004, 09:40:27 PM »
Yes Jac,


 But what about the micro-mini scale that was lost for years packed away nice and tidy in the attic. It was used to test experimental air foil designs lift capability, in micro-minerature scale. What im saying is were all human. It was great trouble for the both of them, when niether one could remember where the damn thing was.


 I just cant get, that picture out of my mind, of a mechanic with goggles and a hat on, stradeling the side of my car, standing on the running boards. While im traveling down some dry dirt road in the 1920's at about 35mph...


-JW

« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 09:40:27 PM by JW »

Harry Luubovv

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 98
Re: Cross-posting --'free energy' for off-grid liv
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2004, 10:06:07 PM »
Yes, it is so easy to agree with flying machines now ..... "Now" as of today, now that you have seen them have used them. But people at that time did not agree to the possibility of such machines, just exactly the same way you do not agree with the believers of possible perpetuality today ! They were so sure that they knew everything, that they knew every outcome. They were so sure of that all. This is the real commparison here that you are missing ! History is just repeating itself we live and we trample over the same stones over and again, without learning new idea.


All I am saying is that, nobody has invented such machinery as yet to date. But since we cannot do it today, we should not pre-empty the future possibilities ! In other words, be open-minded ! This is all I am asking of you all to do. I was not asking you to kill your mother in law.


I knew that you remember the Wrights Brothers, the sad thing is that you do not learn the lesson from that event. By the way, the Wrights were not the real ones who invented the airplanes, if you knew it the right way !


As for the example of automobiles in that post, my point then was that, things seemed impractical at first, but time will make it practical eventually. Just because it looks impractical today, did not mean that it would forever be that impractical way ! I said this because I read somewhere repeatedly that "Many things are possible, but few are practical".


As for wacking over anybody's head with an object, if you were not joking on that,I would say that it was a degrading idea, nobody talked about violence before, now why should you ! ! ? ? ?


Thanks for reading,

Harry Luubovv.


PS: By the way, I have a "Riddle" for you. What colour of shirt I will be wearing  day after tomorrow ? ?

« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 10:06:07 PM by Harry Luubovv »

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4019
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: Cross-posting --'free energy' for off-grid liv
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2004, 10:21:26 PM »
RELAX HL;


 I was just trying to knock Jac off of my virtual car. The point I was trying to make is that the wrights were family, most likely they leaned on each other (no matter what) how else could they have succeded. Its most likely no-one has accomplished something on that order of magnatude, since then, because well,,, whats your best guess?


-JW


PS did not like the reference to cannabalism....

« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 10:21:26 PM by JW »

tecker

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2183
Re: 'free energy' for off-grid living
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2004, 10:23:02 PM »


« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 10:23:02 PM by tecker »

Harry Luubovv

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 98
Re: Cross-posting --'free energy' for off-grid liv
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2004, 10:23:22 PM »
We always act on hintsights, speak on hindsight alone. This is the trouble. Of course hindsight, we never broke any law of physics as far as fying is concerned, now that we know this. But back then, how many believed in human flights were withing the law of physics ? ? ? ? It was just something that we human being did not see back then. You said that they never broke any law of physic because you know better today, as of today, not back then. Just like one day we might discover a new law of physics that allows us to do anything that so many of us all pre-empt out the possibility today. Then again when the time comes, you will say that "Yeah, we can do these things today because we never broke the law of physics !" But tell them that we never broke the law of physics trying to fly back then, and see what was the reaction ! They would react the same way you do today !


Happy days,

Luubovv.

Thanks for reading.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 10:23:22 PM by Harry Luubovv »

tecker

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2183
Re: 'free energy' for off-grid living
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2004, 10:33:11 PM »


   I know you won't miss a single issue from the far side you 've been honing you rhetorical skills for quiet some time now haven't you . Polarization complete.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 10:33:11 PM by tecker »

Harry Luubovv

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 98
Re: Cross-posting --'free energy' for off-grid liv
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2004, 10:43:57 PM »
Further more, even if we argue that law of physics cannot be changed, but there are always ways to overcome the limitations of law of physics. Just because we cannot find the answers to circumventing an obstacle, does not give us the rights to conclude that the solution of bypassing such obstacle will never be possible ! !


So much for law of physics, bring me your law of physics to prove how it is not a perpetual prime-mover to cause the universe to hum along with all its movements of objects in perfect syns ! What pushes the earth around, what kind of fuels, what kind of solar collector that charges on the earth for it to go around the sun like that endlessly ? Gravitational pulls will not do for the continuous motions, and we know that.


Again, "Open mind" is what I ask. As for believing the existing of such machineries, I will have to personally see one to believe one, many of them might be flams to get MM's from U ! ! !


We can find answers somedays to many things that we see no possible today. Agreed ?


Have a happy day again,

Don't eat my head off please.

Wish you all the best.

Harry Luubovv.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 10:43:57 PM by Harry Luubovv »

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4019
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: Cross-posting --'free energy' for off-grid liv
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2004, 11:05:43 PM »
Harry L


 Please try to understand I AM not anti-perpetual motor. I am a thermodynamicist. I often complain that the "laws" of thermodynamics get in my way, that is all. I understand where your comming from, I too would relish such a luxury, But "we" are only a type 0 civilzation possibly evolving into a type 1. AGAIN as always,,, this is my opinion as an individual. You dont need to get ants in your pants. Looking back in retro-spect you will agree I have "in-fact" an open mind. So basically your barking up the wrong tree. Personally, I think previously TomW, gave the best advise, you have to be somewhat "thick skinned" in here.


Cheers for Gawds sake ;0


-jw

« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 11:05:43 PM by JW »

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4019
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: 'free energy' for off-grid living
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2004, 11:32:06 PM »
No... Actually its the cat from dunesbury.


-JW

« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 11:32:06 PM by JW »

TomW

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 5130
  • Country: us
Re: Cross-posting --'free energy' for off-grid liv
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2004, 12:07:30 AM »
Harry;


I think you are missing the main point here. DanF has just confirmed that there is and will be a place to discuss this topic. It will just not be on the front page of the forum. I think you have scored a victory in that regard and you should celebrate that fact. I am an unbeliever that is probably obvious but I also recognize the process of trying has value that does not necessarily stem from a success. I do see some fine machines regardless of whether or not they achieve lofty goals.


A voyage can be more about the journey than the destination.


Another [forgot who] user at one time made the comment:


It is raining energy and we all have forks


We desperately need buckets and drums to capture that rain rather than the forks we have now.


Cheers.


TomW

« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 12:07:30 AM by TomW »

bob g

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1107
  • 8.8kwatt idi diesel thermal conversion unit
    • microcogen.info
Re: Cross-posting --'free energy' for off-grid liv
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2004, 12:35:33 AM »
DanF


Amen..... kudo's and bow's to you for the decision to move this stuff off of the front page...


obviously there are two camps on this one,,, those that have their mind's made up(don't confuse them with the facts) and those that are skeptical.


in the scientific community there is much skepticism, and the debates get very heated. This is mainly why most that develop new and different idea's or designs do their homework and are darn sure to cover all the bases first before coming forward with something that is going to get them blasted. Because once blasted out of the water it becomes harder and harder to get the floor again. Get blown out of the water a couple of times and you will likely never be taken seriously again.


kind of like politics and religion i guess


the thing is at least as i see it, one shouldn't feel the need to get his or her pant's in a wad, if they can support their claims. If you are sure of yourself and your project or proposal, then you should be able to produce repeatable results under the scrutiny of those that are knowlegable enough to test your results.


so far to date no one has been able to do this, at least as far as "free energy" or "perpetual motion" or whatever catchy thing you want to call it.


if such a machine can be built bring it forward, let it see the light of scrutiny, but until then i think the development should be relagated to the wierd science catagory of the board.


anyway i think the decision is a good one


bob g

« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 12:35:33 AM by bob g »
research and development of a S195 changfa based trigenerator, modified
large frame automotive alternators for high output/high efficiency project X alternator for 24, 48 and higher voltages, and related cogen components.
www.microcogen.info and a SOMRAD member

Chester

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 55
So go forth
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2004, 01:40:48 AM »
I've actually seen very little posted on the front page about free energy, except for people complaining about it.


I've seen lots of that.


Oh, when did y'all start paying for the wind?


I propose a tax on the wind, so it can get out of the free energy category.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 01:40:48 AM by Chester »

Harry Luubovv

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 98
Re: So go forth
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2004, 08:07:25 AM »
Hi, friends of all,

I have a few points to make in this posting.


1)

Tom said that one supposed to have "Thick skin", but what did we call this, I was not exactly welcomed by the non-believers, and was almost an "Effigy" of sorts to be brushed off the hood of a car or something, but I still thanked everyone for participating. I supposed that were thin skin act. I am sorry, it was just that I got the two terminology "Thick & thin" mixed up, not you Tom !


2)

Sorry, someone said of barking at some wrong trees, I cannot recollect in my memory that I resented these discussions moving off the front page. The Dan's have the rights I guess to do as they pleased moving whatever about, because afterall, they paid for the site, and these discussions areas are partially of advertisement purposes only, users of the board never directly paid for it. Correct me if I am wrong here please.


3)

Again, all I ask for is that we should have an open mind, but my idea to it is about the same as that of yours-Let me see one perpetual machine and I will believe one exists. But to pre-empt the possibility is too far over doing it logically.


4)

Ha, that one is a joke my friends, because somehow we have always heard more negative arguments about the topic than we have positive expressions about these free energy matters, that is true like Chester said. Any Tom and Dick and Harry Luubovv can tell you that.


5)

The saying that we might not be using the correct means to collect the free energy already in existence, this might be correct. Because, I have already always heard of the usual saying "You cannot make energy, you cannot destroy energy", but says who of "Making anything" in fact ? ? ? The wind is there free for all, all we have to do is then is capture that energy with appropriate apparatus, like blades, we cannot use that energy with iron bars. Just because we cannot find an appropriate device to capture the energy in a magnet for example, it does not preclude the possibility if such uses ! !


6)

This point is to support point-5 above. Now please take two Neo magnets, each 6 inches cub shaped, find same polarities in both magnets, get them within a quarter of an inch proximity, and suddenly let go just one of the magnets. See what happens ? The other magnet just goes shooting flying off, away in high speed ! ! Ok we so much stick to law of physics so we should be sure that this high speed in propulsion does not come from nowhere ! What doe this tell us ? It tells us that there is tremendous free energy in magnets, WE DO NOT HAVE TO MAKE IT, we have it already, please trust your own eyes regardless to any "Established law of physics" which misses the point or does not apply to the point ! ! ! !


In conclusion, isn't all these too obvious a truth that the non believers are missing ? ?


7)

It seems that Tom is more eager to move these discussions than management of the board. The other point is, I have nothing personal against you Tom, but I only wanted to clarify a symptom before anybody misunderstood it. because you often said that many things were possible but not much were useful. People would take this to imply that perpetual machinery will not be possible, but even if it were to be possible, we do obtain no sensible use out of them, so lets forget about the experiments, lease we waste so much time.


Again, I am sure of one thing, law of physics or not, these discussions only still exist anywhere at all on the board somewhat hidden or directly on the front page, only by the grace of the Dan's. Lest us not forget about that, and thank these people for the space.


At long last, Chester you were bad, so we should have taxes attached to uses of wind energy huh ? I like humours, and you did make sense, wind is free energy already, depending on how one looks at the terminology "Free".


Have another wonderful day friends,

Jesus loves you as I do,

Harry Luubovv.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 08:07:25 AM by Harry Luubovv »

elvin1949

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 645
Re: Cross-posting --'free energy' for off-grid liv
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2004, 08:25:25 AM »
i want to know

is a p/m machine still a p/m machine if it has a on/off switch

later

elvin
« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 08:25:25 AM by elvin1949 »

jacquesm

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 467
over unity nonsense and open minds
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2004, 09:00:14 AM »
hehe, did it work ?



The Wright brothers put their (private) money where their mouths were, they did not argue with anybody about the possibility of making a powered heavier than air flying machine, they simply DID IT.



- begin rant -



That's a far cry from the overunity folks who have NOT DONE IT, but in spite of that claim that "surely it must be possible" because there is more between heaven and earth than we can possibly imagine and that's why we should now go and waste our time on it. Or they claim that they have done it and everytime someone really looks at their machines (if they are even allowed to) we find they come up short. That plane either flew or it didn't, and since it did it instantly silenced all the dissenting voices.



Besides all the credit that the wright brothers deserve, let's not forget giants like Otto Lilienthal without whom the Wright brothers would have probably been busy inventing a better way to put fenders on a bike :) Lilienthal already flew heavier than air machines (proof of that is probably that he died when one of his planes crashed), he just didn't have a motor to strap on to it. And Leonardo Da Vinci before him already sketched all kinds of powered flying machines, including a primitve helicopter, but he didn't have the materials. It's not EVERYBODY that believed powered flight to be impossible, that's just a convenient and flawed way to place todays skeptics of overunity in line with those that were skeptical about the Wrights. Bad reasoning, bad analogy.



Let over unity enthousiasts waste THEIR time, resources and efforts on it and then come back when they are ready and reap the profits, just because we were all wrong. It's really simple. The only ones with their minds made up are the overunity guys, the rest of us simply sit back and say 'show me'. I'm not telling you it can't be done, I'm saying I'll believe it when - and only when - I see it. Until then don't waste my time, money or stuff.



Just a little box with a shaft sticking out the side, or two wires with a voltage across it that I can draw current out of without any power going in or out that I can use to power stuff for ever - or a significant portion of forever - will be proof enough for me. I'll pay you dearly for it. Until then leave me alone.



It's a case of ignorant people trying to hijack the minds of more knowledgeable people to go on some kind of stupid wild goose chase. We should go and 'study' their ideas, their non-functional machines. We should 'open our eyes', and be 'open to the possibilities', accept all kinds of flawed analogies as proof that surely we must be wrong. And maybe open our pocket books to fund their bogus studies.



Sorry, but it really does not work like that. The Wrights brothers plane FLEW.



I'd say if you really do believe in over-unity then get a bunch of guys that ALL believe in it and instead of talking about it to people that are skeptical, go and prove the rest of the world wrong and become richer than Bill Gates in the process (oh, It's about the benefit for mankind so we should all chip in... please pass my door, and I don't want a dealership of your device either). What do you need me for ? You already seem to know the answer.



In the early days of medicine there were guys that would sell you all kinds of crap as cure for whatever ailed you. They were called 'quacks', and I think the same term applies to those who would like others to squander their hard earned resources on brain farts. Be happy that you are accomodated here, that in spite of openly stating that the founders/owners of this forum do NOT believe in your projects and consider them a waste of time that there is room for you. Do not expect or ask others that are trying to get some kind of concrete job done to waste their time or resources on your ideas. I do not need to study bs, there is enough real stuff that I can spend my time on. If this were my board there would be no room for that kind of nonsense, I think just creating a platform for this kind of stuff gives it more credentials than it deserves. As you, I'm a guest here and so I'll abide by the rules set by the people who own this place, and I'll try to educate the ignorant, instead of seeing them sucked into some kind of dead end street. I'll do it with SOLID FACTS, not with fantasy, and I'll back up my words with proof instead of with links to disproven papers.



- end rant -



The reason why I'm on this board is because there are a lot of people here that have spent a combined astounding amount of time collecting practical knowledge. I can both contribute the stuff that I know and learn lots of stuff that I don't. It's like having lots of friends that share the same interest, making power using natural phenomena such as the sun, the wind and the force of water. A good number of people on this site are not using grid power because they opt not to, it's because they have to, for them there are no other options. As Dan has stated quite eloquently above it's a neccessity for him, not an option. My own case is a little different, I'm off the grid because I want to, not because I have to. If I really wanted I could connect to the powerlines some 400 meters away from my house and I could simply ignore all the realities of the amount of energy that I consume. Still I feel that I owe it to my kid and the future environment to do what little that I can do to improve the situation, and reducing our dependency on large infrastructure (oh joy, when the blackout happened and we were the ONLY place for miles around that had electricity). The day I cut the powerlines to my house was the best one in my life so far - maybe with the exception of the day my son was born - and I'll spend as much of my time as I can to help drive down the cost of windpower and to create an affordable midsize machine, that can be easily duplicated and built with locally available materials and skills.


 

« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 09:00:14 AM by jacquesm »

jacquesm

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 467
Re: Cross-posting --'free energy' for off-grid liv
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2004, 09:35:45 AM »
sure, as long as you don't need to put more energy in than you can get work out...



not that that's possible (see lots of other threads here)

« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 09:35:45 AM by jacquesm »

laskey

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 55
Re: So go forth
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2004, 09:45:44 AM »
The thing that really burns me about this whole discussion is the arm-chair physicists that never took the time to learn the rules before they try to break them.  You have to learn to stand and walk, before you can run.


Sure Einstien never had much formal education, but guess what... I'm will to bet you're not the next Einstien.  I'm willing to bet none of us is.  Call me a cynic... hell call me a sinner... The only free lunch you'll find is in church, and even then you're gonna get a sermon.


Cya,

Chris

« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 09:45:44 AM by laskey »

RobD

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
Re: Cross-posting --'free energy' for off-grid liv
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2004, 09:56:55 AM »
I think there always will be dreamers and we certainly need that.

The problem is that we have people like Bedini with his motor/gen attempting to gather the 'ethers' and arrogantly insulting people who question his `patented' machine which is a nothing more than motor/generator and a crude one at that.

The other one that comes to mind is the magnet motor with 300% efficiency, it's a joke it's so bad.

We have to make sure in our zealousness that the data we gather is real and not designed to fit our own previously established beliefs. The Wright bro. flew but they also understood the data they gathered before that flight and kept moving in a positive and objective direction with respect to their's and others findings.

Plank's discovery of ultraviolet catastrophe was based on data gathered and objective observation, which in his case disputed his expected hypothesis.

Both cases used valid scientific principles to arrive at the end result. So we see that the discovery of new horizons is possible through established scientific principles.

It is possible to discover something by chance but the difference is that we have a scientifically measurable result to prove the phenomena  in the end. Proposing an instrument with an unmeasurable result and then hypothesizing about how it is beyond our measurements like Bedini did is worthless and has no scientific or social benefit and bearing. He is a `kook' and rightfully deserves the moniker.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 09:56:55 AM by RobD »

Victor

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 93
Re: So go forth
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2004, 10:04:39 AM »
Harry,


 In regards to the example of the energy in the magnets.


 Take a ROCK, lift  it above the ground, now let go and watch it accelerate towards the ground. This is proof of the free energy existing  in rocks.


 Your magnet example is exactly the same thing as you had to expend energy to force the magnets together before letting them fly

« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 10:04:39 AM by Victor »

jacquesm

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 467
Re: Hope
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2004, 10:10:05 AM »
wow vapourware ! I haven't bought any in a long time. please send me some.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 10:10:05 AM by jacquesm »

troy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 227
Re: magnet repulsion example
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2004, 10:21:47 AM »
Harry,


Yours is a common misunderstanding about the forces of magnetism.  There is no free energy in magnets.  Just like there is no Santa Claus.  The example you site is better understood if we substitute spring for magnet.  If you compress a spring, the spring can return that energy by accelerating the object on top of the spring.  Exact same thing with magnets, the energy THAT YOU SUPPLIED  to push the two magnets together is now stored as potential energy with the pair of magnets acting as a spring.  When you release one of the magnets, the stored energy is released.  That doesn't violate any law of physics and certainly doesn't violate any of the three laws of thermodynamics.  The energy is not free by any means.


That doesn't mean I have a closed mind, it means I have a perceptive mind that thinks in physics and understands the difference between stored energy and so called "free energy" where you get more out of the system than you put in.


Good luck and have fun along the way.


Best regards,


troy

« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 10:21:47 AM by troy »

jacquesm

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 467
Re: So go forth
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2004, 10:40:06 AM »
>"The thing that really burns me about this whole discussion is the arm-chair physicists that never took the time to learn the rules before they try to break them."



That's the most astute observation in this thread, and possibly on this board that I have seen so far.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 10:40:06 AM by jacquesm »