A Marketing Study on RE

[ghurd]

Stephen William Hawking is smarter than me (just in case anyone was wondering).

He calculates by the time of 'Startrek' about the year 2600, with continued population growth, power generation will make the entire planet glow...

RED HOT!!!

From his book 'The Universe in a Nutshell'.

G-

[Bruce S]

BTW:

   IMHO: That little jibe in your PS from a previous post about "being intillegent and misinformed rather that stupid" may and I say may have put a few people out, turned them to the dark side or just peeved them.

The misinformed part anyway.

We're all misinformed in way or another, it's what we do with the correct knowledge that makes the difference.

Cheers

Bruce S

[Bruce S]

dan;

   I concur. I read the word "cheaper" as from the Wally world view.

The heated planet part came from a dissertation I had to do while finally finishing a mechanical degree.

It's put in a catch-22 form. We make harvesting energy too easy, appliance makers get lazy, the circle starts all over again. Made for another interesting debate about why energy prices should be kept high, but that's another rant.

The lawyer side ooh gotta dodge that one, I work with 4 FDA ones so I'll dodge that and keep and mortgage paying job for now. :-)

No worries on my side this stuff keeps me sane .

Cheers

Bruce S

[jmk]

  Did you move into the city Bruce? I thought you lived in the country. Didn't have a wind turbin powering your work shop? Maybe I have you mixed up with anouther Bruce.

[dinges]

Hi,

I don't usually engage in these kinds of discussions, and won't anymore. BTW, as to your point nr. 4, I think you should read the thread more carefully. I think I and others have given you your answer (TCO, remember? 'Cheap' incandescents vs. 'expensive' CFLs; Like I said, I can't be bothered to compare this with the costs of installing a RE system that provides the extra power (i.e., your waste power) when not using conservation measures. As someone else put it: you make the calculations and give us the answer.

I for one don't feel the need to educate people (at all price). I do what I like, tinkering & reading on subjects I like; if my neighbour prefers to use incandescents instead of CFLs, even after a short explanation of me, fine. I can't be bothered. But I'm pretty sure that in 5-10 years time, he too will have to seriously start saving energy. And not because he's switching over to a RE system, if you get my drift. In the mean time, I'll have a headstart and saved the money to use it for things I really like doing (instead of handing it over to my power company).

So, I'd say: go ahead, please use all the power you can and need; don't use CFLs, switch off lights, eliminate phantom loads, drive at least two hummers, please do whatever you like. IT IS A FREE COUNTRY. You will have to pay for your own lifestyle, not me.

Off topic: was having an interesting discussion with a fellow ham the other day; he started complaining about windmills. We had a (friendly) argument, exchanging opinions. He said if someone would put a windmill in his next-door plot, he'd sue. So I asked him: if you put an antennamast in your garden (apparently he loved the sight of antennas, but hated the sight of windmills...), and your neighbour doesn't like the view of a big antenna, you realize he might try do everything in his power to stop you from placing that antenna?. Silence from my fellow ham.

Just saw a discussion on TV where dr. Lovelock explained how he thought nuclear energy was our only salvation for the coming 50 years. I laughed my ass off! How long before the greenies will start to chant this song too?

For me, the discussion ends here; I like reading about technical subjects, homebuilt achievements, the 50th-generator of the Dans (when's the birthday? Celebration!), etc. much more than these vagaries. Just welded my first two pieces of metal together; I know what the first real project will be: a furling system!

Mountainman: please don't act so innocently about how some of the writers respond to your question. The tone wasn't exactly that of a 'friendly exchange of views'. If you kick the ball, be expecting the ball. All in all, I'm surprised at the amount of time & effort some people took to try to educate you. E.g. the writer who explained about opportunity cost (of capital and labour). Start counting his hours, and that is one expensive mail! I, for one, prefer to spend my limited time more constructively than trying to convince others.

Enjoy the discussion. I'm out.

And this message I just typed is getting way too expensive... ;-)

Peter,

The Netherlands.

[nanotech]

You know, up here in the frozen wasteland that is northern Minnesota, you end up with the northern version of a redneck.  You know the kind - skulls as thick as they are wide, and as hard to get a new idea through as if they were made of diamond.  I'm sure you've all met the type.  The ones that look down thier noses at you because you drive a Toyota Tercel instead of a Ford, Chevy, or Dodge 3/4 ton 4X4 pickup truck.

Well, take that mentality and multiply it by 200 and you have the entire staff at the place where I work.  Myself and only one other person drive cars NOT made in Detroit, if you get my drift.  And the other guy only drives his Honda Accord because it was free to him.  

I've been trying to preach the RE lifestyle to these neanderthals, but it's falling on deaf ears.  The whole idea that gasp turning off those lights in the plant when we leave could actually save the company money gets you funny looks.  The whole idea that buying a complete other fuel efficient car, insuring it and maintaining it whilst still keeping your "manly" pickup truck would pay for the stupid car in fuel savings just completely escapes them.

So, I figured I'd sell them on the only way I could.  Figure out some way to power an internal combustion engine vehicle on RE.  This comes down to burning electrolysis made hydrogen.  So, put up a bunch of small windmills all tied into thier own water canisters boiling off the hydrogen into a storage medium, then pump it into the metal hydride canisters in the vehicle.

Now, the way to get the rednecks' attention?  When the gasoline prices skyrocket back up again (not if, when), I'd love to drive into work (after a 45 mile one way trip) in the biggest, most gas guzzling TANK of a 454 V-8 4X4 Suburban!!  And when they all ask me how I can afford to drive that thing when gas is up to $5.00 a gallon, I'll happily smile and tell them it no longer costs me a penny to drive it!!  

Sometimes to get stagnant peoples' attention you need a BIG display.  Most RE items don't really make a very big impression, unless you're talking about a 60' HAWT turbine.  Trying to "sell" a redneck on a solar system would be next to impossible.  The returns on the investment are not immediately tangible.  Trying to "sell" a redneck on the idea of an iddy biddy windmill providing all the 'lectricity for his house just goes right over his head.  But put it in terms he can immediately grasp (like driving his big 'ol pickup truck and not have to pay for gas, read: more beer money) and he'll jump right on board!!

And most of you have probably been trying to preach to your own version of my area's redneck.  Probably just different classes of redneck.  Hell, I'm a redneck, too.  You know, mow the yard and find a car you forgot you owned?  That's me.  

[electrondady1]

mt.m. that hub you just bought for something like $170.oo is metric !

[thunderhead]

I seem to come off as a troll when I'm trying to incite some reasoned debate.  I seem to be much better at bringing out people's guns and ammunition than their reasoned responses.  I'm going to go back to technical issues and leave the RE evangelism to others who may enjoy it more than me.

Communication is always difficult on a written medium.  For example, it seems you've mistaken me for an RE evangelist.

But I'm not really very interested in RE evangelism at all.  I don't expect to have to make the arguments for RE - I expect Mother Nature to do all the arguing that's needed.  When the oil runs out, people will seek alternatives.  The people who can sell them the alternatives will be rich, in whatever form "rich" takes in the post-oil world.

If you look at the oil companies, you'll see that they know it too.  Why else would they be trying to re-position themselves as "energy companies"?  The only disagreement I have with the oil companies' future plans is that they're putting marketing before engineering: they want to sell hydrogen in the same way they currently sell oil, even though hydrogen is a horrible fuel, and only likely to be usable on big scales.

The thing that will make the end of the Oil Age interesting from the point of view of us RE types is that the small-scale solutions will be cheaper than the alternatives that the "energy companies" will be selling.  When the average Joe comes to replace his oil-fired appliances (including the big one in the drive) with something that he can fuel, he may well choose a locally-generated solution, if only because it is cheaper.  He certainly won't trust the "energy companies" not to hike the prices in the future, will he?

P.S. congratulations to the rest of the world for using the metric system.  I mentioned it only as another example of a good idea for a sane planet that quite horribly failed (for marketing reasons) in one small part of this planet.

That may be one of the problems on your part of the planet.  But you started by saying that you hated marketing people. :-)

[elvin1949]

you ain't redneck.

I grase livestock in the yard.

Eat the lawnmore for supper.

later

elvin

[MountainMan]

For the record, I said I dislike marketing people.  Big difference between dislike and hate.  I reserve hate for career Politicians and people who are just plain mean, in that order.

Also for the record, I like the metric system.  Never said otherwise.

I also like recycling.  Never said otherwise.

As for conservation (of energy), I think for me it comes down to an extension of something Ed said.  He said to him RE had to do with freedom.  Others said conservation comes down to money.  I agree with all of that.  For me, I don't need a lot of money, but one of my favorite types of freedom is having just enough of it that I don't have to think about it all the time; don't have to go out of my way to arrange things such that I can pay for my dinner.  To me, there is some serious freedom wrapped up in the notion of not having to run around the house turning off lights and such.  Some of you will see a contradiction in this.  To me, it just boils down to adding enough windmills that I can use all the juice I want.  That's a freedom I can sink my teeth into.

jp

[ADMIN]

This was a bit of a 'troll' posting, I agree. But these can be the most interesting kind!

My opinion, which may sound a bit harsh: My energy use is pretty much taken care of by my own power systems--wind, solar PV, and solar thermal. If gasoline prices hit $10 a gallon, if oil and gas for heating homes goes up 2000%, well, you should have started paying attention to reality years ago, folks! I'll be fine, though I won't drive to town very much at that price. I took care of my energy supply years ago, by moving off-grid, and I scraped it all together for cheap by buying surplus. My next move will be more solar and wind power, to run a electric fridge -- so I don't have to rely on burning hydrocarbons to keep food from rotting. Yuppies will learn pretty fast about real life. Me, and most of my neighbors and co-workers, learned about life in the real world by using kerosene lamps for light, muscle power and buckets for water supply, wood for heat, and whatever we could afford and/or home build for solar and wind powered electricity.

I hope the world doesn't come to that, at least while I'm alive. But it's a possibility. Fossil Fuel use compared to demand will part ways on the big graph within a few years...how many years no one knows, but many get paid to predict. Even the likes Chevron are saying it's only about 10 years away.

My home uses about one tenth the electricity per day of the average US home, and my usage is extremely high for our area, thanks to the computers required to keep otherpower.com and fieldlines.com up and running. Fortunately, our servers down in town  run off of grid power, which is -- for now -- CHEAP compared to solar and wind.

ADMIN

[jmk]

 I have a brother who was in Afganistan, and was to Iroc twice. He said things are really screwed up over there. He is seeing in person a really screwed up world! I just hope, and am worried that things dont get down right ugly! We could all be in jeopardy. One thing I don't like is the tax free laws on imigrents. They are buying up all the stores around here. After the six year tax break is up they just put the company into there brothers name. Then they get anouther six years of un taxed profits. Next thing ya know they will be running the country. Think of how many billions of are dollars we give them for oil. Then think how many buisneses they can buy.

[JW]

Hi All,

 I agree with admin that some of these post's are neat. Although Im indifferent about the need for marketing personel in this area of AE/RE... Seems to me this is kind of a grassroots grayarea going on here @fieldlines. most all of the knowledge is freely shared here, especially related to wind turbine design.[use at your own risk ovcoarse]

People who cando, simply do... There are some who have propritary ideas, but for the most part, these things fall in the- parts and components- catagory, such as invertors, batteries or even magnets. When you see the designs freely shared here such as [ibedonic](sp?) you can get a real feel for the spirt here. The marketing personel cant really improve the main trend going on here. On the other hand, none of us makes our own magnets. The major visionarys will find need for such marketing advantages to get needfull parts in mass production. Patent them and supply those parts to us where we can be versital with them, thru unique designs that are shared.

The thing I find most intriguing about this think tank, is that thru the luxury of more powerful magnet's, designs have evolved here that can accomidate less powerful magnets, that previously were not productive for primative power generation.

So Mountain Man,

 I agree that it will be ideal when designs AND parts will accomodate the best in design/efficency/cost so that there will be anbundence of power available.

Its kinda like energizing IR heaters for heating with windturbines powered by a blizzard.

JW  

[ghurd]

I have always been very impressed how the wonderful people here, many of who could obviously be making a lot of money in the same length of time, take that time to help a newbie understand why its 12/9, or help an electricial guy with blades, or a blade guy with rectifiers...

Other things too. Nobody gripes about spelling, thank goodness. The craziest ideas can become reality, with some help. People admit when something doesn't work, and others help figure out why.  A question from anywhere can get a response from all 6 inhabited continents in a couple minutes.

Sorry if I am the only one amazed by the folks here.

G-

[Clifford]

Conserve??

Well...   I am currently displaced from the Northwest where nearly 100% of the electricity is one form of another of a "renewable resource".  Still not sure why Washington need the WPPSS project (usually called the "WHOOPS" project).

I was stunned to discover that the reason gas prices go up in the summer and fall in the winter is because most of the rest of the USA use fossil fuels to generate their electricity.  And AC is actually more expensive to run than heating.  And, I just got to Nebraska/Wyoming for the first time and saw endless lines of black coal trains...   Wonder what that will blow into our sky.  And, what will we do once the mines are empty?  Well, I guess that will be our grandchildren's problem.  Maybe by that time we'll be colonizing Mars.

The other thing I found interesting is that while there are some efficiencies with "bulk generation", the majority of the electricity generated and put on "the grid" never quite makes it to our houses.

There are many ways to incorporate a Renewable Energy Design.  In 1979, my parents decided to build a passive solar house.  It wasn't as efficient as they hoped, but the greenhouse was quite good for growing cactuses.  We also incorporated an early model of a water based heat pump, and added double the standard insulation as well as trying to build in some other conservation methods without actually giving up a thing.  Of course, now, laws have changed and what we put in 25 years ago is now standard today.

I actually drive a mid-60's car (imported)...   and get between 30 and 40 MPG...   And, I just now purchased a "new" late 60's SUV which I am also hoping will also get around 40 MPG.  Someday I will have an electric vehicle running off of solar energy.

Nearly 40 years later, I am still amazed that the AMERICANS haven't gotten it right and now the "BIG THREE" are screaming because nobody can afford to fill the tanks in their new SUVs....   And...  yes, it does hurt when a year ago I could fill my tank for $5, and now I've had to pay up to $10 for a tankful.

Ok...  so I digress a bit.

I have managed to fall into a need to run on "backup power", and decided to explore solar.  

I went out and purchased about 300 watts worth of solar panels (288 watts), for a bit under $1000, thinking that in a day I could generate about... Ummm...  288 watts * 10 hrs = approx 2  KWH of power per day (of course being somewhat conservative with my calculations).

Well, after I got them up on my roof, I discovered that I had somewhat overestimated my power generation capabilities.  I have some trees that are shading my array at times.  I have a sub-optimal angle, and probably have some line loss too.   And, of course, there can be CLOUDS.  And...  the ratings of the panels are a bit odd, as they are rated at 12V, but they don't seem to be concerned about the power they can push into a 12V battery.

Anyway, all told, rather than getting 2000 watt hrs / day...  on a good day I get about 200 watt hrs.  On a bad day, I can be down to less than 50 watt hrs.

Now, consider running your 100 watt bulb for a half an hour...   Makes you think twice about conservation.  Especially when I can run my 3 watt CFL bulb all day using about the same amount of power.

One starts counting the costs of little things....

Keeping my inverter plugged in so that I can have 110V whenever I want it...  well, that costs about 3 watts for a small inverter, and a bit more for a larger inverter.  So...   for 24 hrs...   we've got 72 watts hrs.  That is about half my entire generation capabilities on a good day, and exceeds the generation capabilities on a cloudy day.

SO...  just keeping that little inverter plugged in 24x7 costs me about $1000 initial investment.  Of course, for that $1000, I can keep it plugged in for the rest of my life.

My high efficiency Bosch tankless hot water heater sounded like a good idea when I was grid connected...  but it is one of the things in my house that requires 110V to run, and I cringe every time that it turns on the exhaust fan for 10 minutes longer than I have the hot water on.

Wind?

Well, I don't get enough wind in my back yard to amount to a hill of beans.  And...  I don't want to stay in my current house long enough to invest into tying a windmill onto my roof solidly enough that I could be assured that it won't go crashing into my neighbor's windows during the next thunderstorm, or head cartwheeling off down the street.

Surface Area...  not sure that I could add 10x the panels to my current South Facing part of the roof.  Actually, I've been considering putting a couple of panels facing South-West on my West facing roof.

Generator...

Well, yes, I will probably end up cheating a bit this winter.  But, I have a strong aversion to sucking down fossil fuels to bypass my panels.  However, I do have a 350 watt generator.   It should be plenty large enough to run 3 - 100 watt bulbs.  But, it is made to run on 12V/110V, and only puts out about 50 watts for 12V.  Hopefully this weekend I'll modify it to run straight 12V.

What size do many people get to run a household?  3KW generators?  It might be good if two people want to run hair dryers at the same time, but one certainly doesn't need to run a hair dryer all day.

Anyway...  in my next house, I will probably invest in $10,000 or more in solar panels, and a few thousand in hot water panels, and maybe even some "HEAT" panels.  

But, for now I find myself trying to learn to get by with the amount of power each day that it takes to power a typical space heater (or hair dryer) for about 10 minutes.

Let's see...  if I can run the space heater for 10 minutes for $1000 investment.  To run it for 24 hrs... ummm that would only be about $120,000 to run it 24 hrs a day.

The hard thing is...  if I calculate my average electricity bill...  about $20 to $30 or so.  It is even several years to pay off my marginal solar system, and could take the rest of my life to save the money to put in a reasonably good system (assuming that we don't run out of fossil fuels in 20 years and also have the inevitable a "Chernobyl" in the USA).

[finnsawyer]

Yesterday I broke down and bought a couple of 8 year rated CFLs to replace two 100 watt bulbs.  This is my second foray into CFLs.  So, lets see how long they really last.  Stay tuned.

Hydroelectric power is great.  Unfortunately, today it is discouraged.  About eight miles from where I live there is a place near Lake Superior that has a wooden dam and a steel dam left over from the copper milling days.  The steel dam has a big hole in it, and the DNR this past year required the township, which owns the site, to lower the wooden dam 10 feet.  Now the condition of the dams is not that important.  I mention them to show that this would be a perfect site for a small hydroelectric plant.  It will not happen, of course.  Given the rules and regulations of the day, anyone would be crazy to try it.  It will take a sea change in attitudes to change this.  One wonders how much coal or natural gas such a plant would save?

[finnsawyer]

As far as I'm concerned, they can take the metric system and shove it down a rat hole.  I've got an Italian made tractor (SAME as the others).  Do you know how many different thread sizes there are for a particular size bolt.  Bah, humbug.  Give me good old English sizes any day.  In my opinion, changing over to metric was one of the biggest mistakes we ever made.  There are good strategic reasons to have a different system than potential enemies.

[chux0r]

I've learned that some people consider it rude to have and state an opposing viewpoint.

I think everyone's been quite accommodating and polite considering I can paraphrase your initial post thusly:

You people are naive.  Your opinions are useless.  No one will listen to you because you don't have a trash compactor in your SUV.  You DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW THE WORLD WORKS.  Your ideas have no place on this planet.

I'm not embellishing too much, I took those nuggets from your actual original post.  People don't consider you rude because of your viewpoint.  People consider you rude because of your condescending attitude.

I don't really care, but I'm just amused by your ability to hurl such things en masse at a group of people, and feign shock when a few folks respond mildly irked at best.  Carry on.

[TomW]

A friggin Men!

Then does it again with the troll about towers.

Careful, if you feed them they never leave.

/end rant.

T

[maker of toys]

if you go to the national buereau of standards, you'll find that the official definition of the inch is in millimeters, which in turn are defined from an atomic standard (some ridiculous number of wavelengths of a certain emission line of cesium, figured to about 12 significant figures, IIRC)

Time is defined by distance traveled in vacuum by light;  to taverse some ridiculous number of meters (298,000,000 plus or minus some and figured to an additional three decimal significant figures or so.) takes 1 second.  Makes no sense to me why we didn't just do some rounding and rationalize the rational system.

so you are actually using the metric system.  it's just well disguised. <G>

and there are at least 3 SAE recognised thread pitches for each nominal bolt size. plus a couple of british standards that ALMOST fit SAE hardware, but the thread profile is subtly wrong.  plus a whole pile of others used in gunsmithing, etc.  and then some gimbal-headed engineer goes off and invents something entirely new, just to keep you beholden to the company store. (not strictly a *U*niform *S*tagnation of *A*pathy problem. . . the europeans and the Japanese like to do that, too)

I think there are 3 ISO recognised metric pitches per bolt diameter. My Italian car and my VW beetle (old) both use only 2 of those pitches. My Dad's Supra uses all four.

 My truck (99 ranger) uses three, plus some SAE into the bargain.  Thankfully, I don't have occasion to work on it much. . . <G>  I had a chevy once that had metric threads on an SAE-sized nut. THAT was irritating.

So, I guess I'm trying to say, 'you got lucky-  at least all of yours fit one standard!

-Dan

[maker of toys]

oops

 make that 'when you're using the 'american' system you are actually using the metric system yacketyschmackety. . . .'

[maker of toys]

completely forgot the other point I wanted to make:

There are good strategic reasons to have a different system than potential enemies.

there are even more compelling reasons to have the SAME system as your allies. . .

post-modern war is going to be a lot like Iraq or Vietnam.  our enemies will be using the same system as us, because they will get their weapons from us or our suppliers.  technological superiority has a hard time with people who are willing to strap explosives to themselves or what should be innocent items. . . . and who are quite  able and willing to use captured equipment to supplement whatever they started with.

what's not smart is depening on imports from and therefore sending large sums of money to cultures we insist on pissing off.  Which, at this point makes up most of the globe, I think. (So maybe that's the point you're trying to make?<G>)

[maker of toys]

to respond to your last line;

we have a 'chernobyl' every year . . . coal contains small but measurable fractions of heavy metals including radioisotopes.  the 'scrubbers' get most of it, (didn't used to) but there are still elevated levels of radionucletides in the plume of any coal-burning plant on the planet, as compared with intake air. crude-fired plants less so, but still elevated.

the three mile island mistake released much less activity into the environment than the heating season did that year in the surrounding community alone.

the projected waste stream from a fusion plant will be less on a per-kWh basis than what comes out of a 1940's coal plant.

the survivors of Hiroshima have a longer life expectancy (and arguably less cancer per capita (!)) than the survivors of what we did to Tokyo.

just more reasons to get away from petrochemical fuels.

-Dan

[erichtopp]

Hummmmmm, there seems to be a small finacial problem with buying a Bergey 10 KW or Jacobs 20 KW wind turbine and putting it up to recoup your money. The payback time is very very long. For example, a neighbour installed a 20 KW Jacobs unit for something like +$80,000 dollars and he said the payback period is over 15 years. Another neighbour installed a solar domestic hot water heating system for over $6800 and his payback period is over 15 years as well.

The payback on commercial RE systems is just too long. In order to make RE more enticing to the general public, the payback has to be 5 years or less.

However here is a little food for thought. If you can build a solar hot water heating system for $1500 or less, now the whole idea becomes viable finacially..........................and if you build a wind turbine coupled to heating resistors to supplement your heating costs (with out that expensive grid tie inverter and generator), the wind turbine becomes finacially viable as well.

Bottom line, keep your capital upfront costs down on your RE systems, regardless of the type of RE you decide to install. Above all, calculate your payback period when installing an RE system. It should not be more than 5 years.

As for compact CFL's........well I found the Sylvania units don't last very long. Out of 19 Sylvania CFL's installed in my home, 4 units have FAILED so far. 2 units FAILED in the first week and 2 more FAILED in less than a year.....................but here is the good news..................... I also installed 20 Phillips CFL's in my home as well and NONE of the units has failed. Furthermore, the Phillips CFL's are instant on and are totally silent in operation. The globe style of Sylvania units are a somewhat noisy and take time to go from 50% brillance to 100% brillance. The price difference is $3 more for the Phillips CFL's but they are worth the money (premature replacement of CFL's is costly).

[JYL]

Conservation is good - Likely all the time - Not just in small scale RE.

I live in Quebec, Canada.  Over 94% of the Electricity is generated by some Renewable Energy forms.  Being cheap and available, the electricity even displaces most others form of energy used at home (gaz, fuel oil and more).  This is pretty close to the perfect RE world you describe...  We are now installing windmill by the 1000 MWe.  Quebec has the space, the hydro and the wind... We can go like that for the next 50 years...

Guest what; Quebec is now talking "conservation" big time.  It just does not make sense to build new infrastructure all the time when we can do better with "conservation".  For sure, we are not at the stage to kill all phantom loads, but we are asking for better engineering now.  I will give you a lot of example that many grid connected people with an almost limitless supply of cheap energy will like to see:

Bad engineering examples:

A pool filtering system powered by a 1 HP engine that consume 13.8 Amp (110 Volt) does not make sense when you can purchase one powered by a 1.5 HP motor, consuming 9Amp (110Volts) for 20$ differences.  One is badly engineer and should never have been on the market in the first place.  Time to recover the 20$ at 0.06$ KW/h - 650 Hour of operating.  Other advantage, less noise and shorter daily run (more saving, longer life expectancy).

It does not make sense to have a TV set that consume in excess of 20W when power-off.  Some brands do with less than 2W, offering the same exact function.  Difference in cost when purchasing the good (-9$).  Do the TCO. But the funny thing, they should be able to do it for less than 0.5W.  Just some stupid engineering investment and save more pollution.

Replacing the "transformer" wall-mart by the electronic equivalent save watts.  The difference in cost when mass manufactured - a few cents.  Pay by itself in less than a years even at $0.06 KW/H.  Just plain - bad engineering or lazy company that does not care because the "public" does not ask for it.  What difference does it make to you if two, otherwise, identical alarm clock radio consume either 1W or 4W depending on the choice of component? Not much, you save a bit, that it.

Try to explain why a desktop computer like an Intel Celeron/Pentium 4 can consume about 3 to 4 times the power of an "Intel M processor (laptop chip)" for the exact same performance.  Likely, because the Pentium 4 needs some more engineering!  Now, the Pentium M is sold with a hefty premium compare to the regular Pentium 4... The only reason is marketing since the Pentium M cost actually less to produce (smaller chip).

More efficient HVAC cost a premium.  Yes, because the manufacturer take a higher markup.  How much difference in the cost of manufacturing an Air Conditioner with a rating of 14 or 12 or 9...  In most cases, much less than 100$.  A unit with a higher rating is also often quieter.

The "long duration" incandescent light are marketing oxymoron.  They are so inefficient and offer only average quality light.  Why in hell somebody does purchase a 100 W bulb delivering the same light (but not the same quality) has a 60 W regular bulb.  To save on replacing the 0.50$ bulb when spending 50 time that on the electric bill?  When you look at it, the CFL are so more efficient and if you take care, offer a better quality of light that this oxymoron.

I have one of these front load washing machines.  I paid a premium for it at 2,600$CAN with the drier.  I purchase it because it uses less soap, clean better; help preserve the good appearance of the garment, etc...  But the real reason for me, to spend that much money was:  It reduce my skin allergy problems to soap because they rinse a lot better. Now, you can get the exact same machine for less than 1,000$CAN, only a few hundred over the regular top loading machine.  Why stick with an inferior product?  Because it look more American?

Why in hell should I purchase a refrigerator that consume over a 1,000 Kwh per year when I can get one, same size and everything that do it for 454 Kwh per year? Because I love the additional noise that the former makes and I like to spend extra money? Because it fit better in the "décor"?  May be, but I prefer silent unit.

Now, this is all money in my pocket.  I did not reduce my quality of life - one iota.  Actually, I improve it substantially in many cases (less noise, less maintenance, less allergy,...). Often, good engineering also means better product in the end - This small "difference" that make some product so desirable.

In many cases, the real difference in the "production cost" of a good, between a high efficiency unit and a "low cost" alternative, is minuscule.  The marketing department is boosting the markup on them, because some people nevertheless purchase them.  There is a market for them, simply because they are better product.

The day we will insist on product that can "conserve" the energy, the manufacturer will get the message.  This will be only one additional variable in the engineering department. The day that we refuse to purchase an electric motor that yield a 49% efficiency and prefer a 94% one... The manufacturer will get it.

Now, you might say that in a place where most of the electricity come from RE, we don't help the environment much.  Guest again, the more we consume, the more "RE" infrastructure must be build and that create pollution in one form or another.

By the way, I have a small car by your standard.  An Acura EL, look at it has a High End Honda civic. I prefer that car 10 to 1 to an F-150.  It save gas, it is more agile on the road and in the parking lot, fun to drive.  This is my style!  Actually, the only time I find it "small" is when I go in the US and have to compete with a lot of pick-up truck and SUV.  I have some friend in New-Jersey: 1 particular case stand-up: 1 Navigator (the wife) and 1 H2, the Husband - and they live in a Mobil Home because they can't afford better.  Some people don't have the same priority, that it!

I live in Metric

[ghurd]

Some good points.

I thought it was just me.

The pool pumps is just one of many examples of poor motor choices.

Just got 2 laptops last night, with M chips. The price difference isn't much, and it seems the M chip laptops have More bells and Bigger whistles. The M chip machines have dual layer DVD burners (instead of CD burner/DVD reader), far bigger HDs, card readers, better sound and graphics cards, more software, etc. Looks like a better deal to get the Bigger Faster Better machine for US$100 more. Not sure how much of that $100 is for the chip and how much is for the rest of the stuff.

The US ban on low efficiency A/C is about here. The prices on them will drop soon.

My grand parents had 2 electric washers in their whole lives.

The first was a frontloader washer/drier, in one unit from the early 1950's. It crapped out in the early or mid 1970's.  The next was a front load washer, and a standard drier, because they couldn't get a single unit at the time. They both passed on about 2 years ago but the washer and drier still work.

They never spent a nickel without thinking about it twice.

Maybe the premium price is related to premium parts?

I have a $14,000 Toyota pickup 4-cyl 2WD, and need it for work. My friend had a $30,000 3/4 ton 4X4 Chevy. He always asks me to move heavy dirty stuff so he won't scratch his truck bed!

Chevy had a TV commercial for the Avio (sp?) shoebox on wheels, bragging 34MPG highway. LOL! My newer loaded Camry with power everything and leather gets more than that!

Jeeze! Even my 4 Runner LTD 4x4 biggest V6 A/T got about 27MPG highway on the only highway trip so far, Ohio to Maniwaki QC and back.  AND it was loaded with 4 adults and 1250 pounds of stuff at the time!

So 34MPG for a shoebox is a joke, right? GM should be hiding that number instead of bragging.

Metric only bothers me with degrees C.

G-

[willib]

Yes some good points indeed.

I'm not sure if this was said yet but i can buy CFL's for $1.00 American at the local dollar store..

i have one in every socket i use ,except when i need the heat to cure the polyester resin in the coils i make .

As for refrigeration Google " einstein refrigerator " it has no motor , no compressor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein_refrigerator

it uses waste heat and an absorption process that i dont really understand , why cant it be mass produced?

it could be hooked up to your heating system , collecting all the heat that is wasted going up the flue.

i live in New Jersey a couple miles from the ocean , which is where i'd like to test my gen when its done..

[elvin1949]

AMEN

I'm going fishing

later

elvin

[elvin1949]

You ain't the only one.

later

elvin

[finnsawyer]

The problem is that you don't know who the enemy is going to be.  We've fought the Germans twice, the Japanese once, and all kinds of little skirmishes in the last hundred years.  I'm betting on the next major war being with the Chinese.   Starting with their major espionage thrust, there are many parallels involving China and the situation before WWII.  This ties in with your comment about depending on imports from other cultures.  We have created a dangerous situation.  Oh yeah, if we had stayed on the English Standard the Chinese (and others) would have had to tool accordingly, increasing their costs and helping our local manufacturers compete.

[ghurd]

They are mass produced, or at least close, for RVs, propane use, or (some) Amish.

The Amish table-top style is small at 1.5 or 2 cu ft, and uses about 1 gallon of kerosene a MONTH! The flame is smaller than a candle's. Not cheap.

[finnsawyer]

No, I have two standards to deal with.  My bulldozer is English (only two thread sizes to deal with, and most are coarse).  The tractor as I mentioned is Metric, and since no one carries them locally, I have to order bolts for it being careful of which thread pitch applies.  Thank God for Fastnal.  Anyway, it's not a happy situation, but such is life.

[willib]

yeah ,they do sell them commercially

http://www.dometic.com/templates/Product,1438,1202.aspx

you could use your dump load to electrolize water into H2 & O2 and refrigerate for free, maybe ?