US Energy Use

[Peppyy]

I had seen these charts in a book at the library and couldn't remember what they were called.

Net Primary Resourse Consumption. You can download the complete report from the website. http://eed.llnl.gov/

I am not sure how efficient the avarage hombrew RE setup is but I bet it is a whole lot better than 35%. See the charts here.

http://eed.llnl.gov/flow/02flow.php

Another link I found all too interesting was "Are we running out of oil?"

http://www.oilcrisis.com/magoon/

Much easier to read in the PDF doccument.

[boarder girl]

Yeah, and Bush thinks the solution is to drill for more oil in Alaska!  And we need more Nukes!  Ease up on environmental regulations on power producers!  And then pass your Energy Bill on Earth Day!  Ouch, don't get me started!

Thanks for the info.

L

[finnsawyer]

Hey, people can drive less.  They don't have to be running everywhere all the time.

[pyrocasto]

Unfortuanantly alot of peole do have to be running everywhere. They do need to find a more efficient way though. Wether a bike or moped, even an Echo or something would be better.

[scottsAI]

I completely disagree. Sorry to burst your bubble.

We should piss away all the energy we want!!!

Think about it.

The non-renewable energy sources we have are estimated to last over 200 years.

Even at the most exaggeratedly rates.

Coal, Nuc, Oil, Gas.

Coal and Nuc are good for 200 years each.

We find Oil/gas everywhere we drill, just have to go deeper.

Sweden thought to be barren of oil has found it at 5 miles.

The problem is the cost is high, so only the established players get the oil.

We do have a supply and demand problem. The supply is controlled by a few very large company's. Free enterprise is not working, the few are controlling the worlds supply of energy. They control the laws and the supply and demand equation. This is not free enterprise.

They will keep raising the prices until something is done.

Solar cells have been reported in short supply.

The worlds semiconductor plants can easily handle the need. Most are not setup to produce solar cells. As the price raises they will become more interested. Today they see the shortage as short term, if it continues they respond. Will take about a year.

A book written a couple years ago uses the term Alchemy to represent Technology.

This is what your doing on this board. You all are alchemists.

When the cost of doing something is too great, the alchemists step in and find new lower cost ways to do something.

So let the big company's raise the price. It's getting high enough for the alchemists to make a living destroying the oil co!

Have fun.

[chux0r]

Man, I love my GS500.  Zero to sixty in faster than I need to, 55+ MPG and it cost me $3000 even after all my mods.  I'm always sad to drive my car both for the 3x fuel cost (yes, my car's not great!) and the lack of fun.  So, yes, people can find things more efficient than cars, but are they willing?  I am.  Though, when it's -20, you'll see me back in my car with the heat blasted...

[JeroenH]

We should piss away all the energy we want!!!

Okaaayyyy..... Can my children (and yours) confront you with this quote in 30 years?

The non-renewable energy sources we have are estimated to last over 200 years.

They'll probably last even longer than that, but that's not the problem. The problem is so simple I don't understand people not getting it. At some point the worlds oil fields cannot deliver oil as fast as our growing economies want (and need!) it. At that point prices of EVERYTHING will rise sharply and dramatically, collapsing the world economy.

I dread what will happen then, the formerly rich countries desperately looking for ways to secure more oil. War in the Gulf, anyone?

They will keep raising the prices until something is done.

Yeah, only the problem is, when the rollover comes the prices will rise very quickly, rendering the energy companies (and, indeed, the world) unable to cope. It wil at some point quite simply become too expensive to build things like solar cells and wind turbines. If we don't start now, it may be too late.

[electrondady1]

i read a book by jerimy rifkin last year called "the hydrogen econemy" it was very good i would recomend it .  i gave my copy to my bank manager, i like her to be well informed. alot of social systems that work now with cheap oil will no longer be viable . things could get nasty.

[boarder girl]

Sounds like you read this article http://www.northernexpress.com/editorial/features.asp?id=1158.  It's a good read everybody, but it's scary!

[nothing to lose]

The real problem is not the supply, it is those who control the supply.

Also it is the envirormental effects of many feuls and products.

The biggest problem of all is people!!

My Mother visited Alaska. One place she was at had just spent tons of money building some tourist area right at a glacer a few years ago so people could look out the window and get a good view, now it has receeded so far you can hardly see it she said. WHY?

 Recently I just read something about an iceburg the size of a city breaking off, WHY??

Ok think about what is causing that? Is it really global warming as stated by those in control?? Or is is a naturaul occurance that is getting worse with time?

 Didn't the Titanic sink by hitting an Iceburg? How much global warming had people and industry caused by then?? How long have iceburgs been floating around before that??

 Ok something must have been going on at that time also, ice does not just melt and break apart when kept frozen right! So we had an Ice age that created Ice and that is over, now it is melting! Redundant Cycle?? What was here before the ICE? Water??

 The world can survive without oil! How long has it actually been used in massive amounts? 90 maybe 100 years? People survived how long before that??

So what if we have to change our lifestyle a little, aren't we doing that somewhat now by building wind gennies and small hydros ourselfs to charge batteries and run inverters, and aren't we trying to conserve the energy we make for ourselfs, I would call that a bit of change in life style compared to the norm of others. So eventually there will be no oil or other feuls, 200 years? So what?? We will be prepared happily now and dead by then, our kids, grandkids, great grandkids, can look to see what we have done and do it themselfs or move back into the caves where we all started out to begin with.

And actually, what is so bad about caves? I have been in several that I would actaully prefer over modern housing myself!! Cool in the summer, warm in winter, nice and roomy, no worries about tornado ripping it apart or fire burning it down. Gee how much "PROGRESS" we made by building stick houses and burning feuls to heat and cool them

Those who have 9 successefull highly paid collage graduated kids do not consider themselfs to be part of the over population problem that they grip about. But hey what causes over population?? Have more children than people producing them! So ok, 2 adults have 2 children, it equals out. 2 people having 9 kids over populates! Does not matter if they are all bums and criminals or doctors and lawers, it's still 7 extra people in the population count as a whole!

 Of course add to that things like people have the kids at a young age and live to be 70 or more. Some families have 4 and 5 generations living at once today and if each kid has only 4 kids thats 2, 8, 32, 128, 512 people by the time the first 2 parents actaully die.

I know a family almost that large personally!! And these people are complaining about the world problems and over population? I just grit my teeth and don't bother telling them it's people like them that are causing the problem they complain about.

 These are friends and I don't care, but it's the facts!

Energy supply is not the problem, people are the problem!

 When people learn to take care of their own needs instead of expecting some-one else to take care of them then the world will start getting better. It started falling apart when the people started expecting the governments to do everything for them!

[Junkie]

Quote "The world can survive without oil! How long has it actually been used in massive amounts? 90 maybe 100 years? People survived how long before that??"

Yes, but there was only 1 billion  people 100 years ago, now there are 6 billion! We also don't farm organically now, we use loads of pesticides and fertilisers made from oil and natural gas.

One other thing, we're not running out of oil, but we are near the peak. Once we pass the peak oil production declines.

http://www.energybulletin.net/5080.html

http://www.peakoil.com/

[johnlm]

NTL

your last comment:

. It started falling apart when the people started expecting the governments to do everything for them!

is a very significant point.  To keep things falling apart and to keep gov doing everything for you continue to vote liberal.

John

[scottsAI]

Every day the earth receives more energy than man kind has used for our entire existence.

If we can't figure out how to use one day's worth then we deserve what ever happens.

I am not frightened by the future.

I live for change.

   Change is what I am. (Why I'm here)

      I have learned most people are frightened by change. (Why so few here).

Change hopefully is good, but often not. We need the wisdom of the past to learn not to repeat bad things from the past. Most of our leaders are young, not learned of the past. They have the passion for change, but not the skills. Older people have learned the dangers of change; the people, so resist it. Middle road is needed but rarely achieved.

JeroenH – yes, I will look my kids in the eye in 30 years and say I said...

“nothing to lose“ – Love your post, up to the end. Over population.

People are the problem. But Not over population. I will prove it.

Man occupies little of the area of the earth.

Have you seen the photo from orbit, People were asked to turn on outside lights in support of earth day (or something). The earth is mostly dark.

People that live in cities think the population is high. Drive out of town and take a look around. Or fly from CA to NY, and see how little is settled.

10 times the current population is no problem, take a look at China.

The land mass is large but they have almost half the earths population.

I have no desire to go live in china, but even with the low tech they have, the population density dwarfs anything outside. Apply some technology, what do you think we could achieve? Assuming this was a desired goal, 10x not a problem.

Besides change, people do Not like to think. This is our biggest problem.

We live in a society with many illusions.

Creditable People will say something, like a collage professor.  

People are good, they will hear something from an authority and believe it and act. They will never question it. Is it true? What possible spin does this person have, why would they say... They assume the authority is just as good as they and trust.

This is the biggest crime in our time.

Our leaders understand this, and manipulate us with partial truths and lies.

I read stuff in the paper, only after my wife shows it to me, I use the info in the article to prove it's wrong. My wife will say, you just don't understand. But I do. I get validated later, but that is all forgotten. So the past repeats.

All problems can be solved with Alchemy, except maybe ignorance.

Have fun.

[ghurd]

The demand for horses would be so great I doubt breeders could catch up in 100 years.  No gas means no tractors.

[nothing to lose]

Use veggy oil in the diesel tractors, still got them with out the oil as feul.

Use horses for riding to work, more fun anyway

More horses to ride, more fertalizer for crops

Big cities could put in electric trollies, remember those?? Get rid of the stinky busses drinking all that feul!

Kids could go back to schools in their own neighborhoods again. Stop bussing, make all schools decent quality, not ship any kids to lousey schools, but that would be too easy!!

We could survive perfectly fine although we may not have diposable plastics to throw away, and we may have to go back to the old fashioned ways of making things last longer instead of mass producing garbage to throw away in 6 months or 2 years. That might cause a problem with not being able to fill the dumps up fast enough though :O

Hey the Amish still live! Though I seem to see some driving black cars ocasionally.

I think many are not as old fasioned as they used to be.

Maybe countries start going back to taking care of themselfs and producing their own goods for their own use. No feul for cargo ships!

What a shame if the USA had to put in a Hydro plant for power to make it's own steel!

Etc. Etc.

Although the transition period might be rough, in a way it might do alot of good too if we did run out of fossil feuls.

[ghurd]

The busses around here... rare to see someone actually on one.  VERY rare to see 3 people on the same bus!  It would be cheaper and use less dino fuel to have free taxis.  They are always needing $250,000 for this, and $500,000 for that, from the tax payers to 'keep the busses rolling' or some such nonsense.  It kills me to be stuck beind an empty bus for 10 miles that keeps stopping every 200 yards at empty stops in case someone wants to get on. They won't stop long enough to pass them.

The Amish would be lost without diesel fuel, regular and white (coleman) gas and coal. (air-powered stuff like water and tools, Lights, chain and table saws, heat...). Not to mention, no ice, which is delivered and made with diesel and grid.

Cars- depends on the church district, but they were probably some kind of Menonite.

They are cutting edge for some things, like solar and LEDs. They have been using wide scale LEDs for about 7 or 8 years now.

Wind died out with air powered water pumps. Mostly.  Its coming back in some areas. Too bad most of the air power is air 403s. Giving air a bad name.

I can count all the people I know on one hand who could even operate a wind genny, let alone diagnois or fix a controller or dump load.

The USA, "Breadbasket of the World", imported more food than we exported last year. First time ever.  Maybe food is next to get short supplied?

G-

[JeroenH]

I had not read it, but I have now and it is indeed scary.

It depresses me at some times. When I see people driving their big Mercedes or buying huge 100" plasma TVs I wonder if they have any idea what is coming.

One part of the problem, at least over here in the Netherlands, is that the only people in the government who seem to have a clue about all this are the green(ish) party etc. And I'm not going to vote for them, they have too many weird ideas. What I would like to see is a 'normal' political party which can see further ahead then the four years until the next election. They should set (energy) policies for much longer terms, 20, 50 or even 100 years. But that's difficult, it would require us to make secrifices and we are not used to that any more.

sigh

I'm not a religious person, but sometimes I wonder why we're wasting this beautiful planet we've been given. Maybe it will make us better people, more humble perhaps, in the end. But it will be hard. I hope my children will contribute to the solution, not to the problem. I will try to show them way.

[electrondady1]

scott you make some very valid points.but remember,  china also  has a one child per couple  policy in order to get the population down. it's not the space people occupy , but the resource base required to support them .

[scottsAI]

Point appreciated.

With their low tech, and how the government has kept the people ignorant.

Their population density is huge. More so than any other area.

Cities exist around the world with higher, but they don't grow their own food. As does the low tech china.

As they learn, they will want to reduce, so they each have a better life.

So to say we are over crowded and need to reduce the populations is not true.

We are not even close. The food producing methods of china are one fifth of US.

If we wanted to we could sustain 10x the population, I don't think that is a desired goal, but reduction is not necessary or even remotely close to being needed in US.

We are so far removed from the need, the only thing a large family should make you think of is how quaint. Not like it's a bad thing.

Have fun.

[boarder girl]

Scott, Just because much of the land is unsettled doesn't mean there is room for more people.  The world is an ecosystem that relies on balance.  To settle the unsettled areas is to displace other living things which are no less important than humans...right down to plankton!  No offense but I'm not excited about the thought of city folks moving out into the country. I'm seeing urban sprawl right now in my little town and it depresses me to see more pavement.  It reminds me of growing up in Orlando.  There where wild areas near where I lived.  Then one day I saw a herd of gopher turtles coming down my street.  I thought is was cool as a kid.  Now I realize it was because they were being driven from their habitat (apartments where going up).  I go back there today and there is nothing but pavement.  Nobody even knows what a gopher turtle is.  It's sad.

[richhagen]

I think military conflict over diminishing resources is a real threat.  I could adapt myself to half of the energy consumption, and believe I could produce most of it myself.  I have an electric car that I could charge from my solar panels with a little modification of my systems.  I have little heat usage in my apartment in my building, as even the walls now have R-25 insulation.  I think that the author of that articles perception is a little more dire than my own.  We have alternatives to some of the cheap fuels and energy.  As scarcity increases and prices ramp up, things like water pumping windmills will re-emerge across the great plains.  On my recent trip out west, I saw a dilapitated, no longer functioning windmill off of I-80 with a diesle motor and pump in place as a replacement, probably for livestock watering.  If fuel prices increase as they have been, the replacements will be the opposite, wind mills for water pumping, and electric mills, and batteries to drive the pumps of those irrigation systems.  Energy will get more expensive, I think there is little doubt of that, and the sources of it will change, but I don't see a cultural collapse because of the lack of it unless it is completely turned off all at once, or war over resources destroys it.  Solectria can make electric delivery trucks for local city deliveries, and with increasing fuel prices, they become competitively advantageous over the long term.  Change will come, hopefully slowly, not forced overnight by a crisis.  Rich

[pyrocasto]

We need to slow down the birth rate until the deat rate/birth rate is higher.

[BeenzMeenzWind]

I agree with most of what's being said here. Especially the bit about waste. There's nothing wrong with wasting energy, provided you have the means to keep wasting it next week, next year and 50 years from now.

I'm not sure what the state of play is in the US, but here in UK it's not just a matter of people depending on others, mostly the government, to do things for them. Or at least make sure the things get done. It's more a matter of (legally) having no choice in the matter, as the law seems geared to prevent people being independant of big business.

I, and many others I know, have run into brick walls when we try and do something useful for ourselves.

One guy around here makes furniture from recycled timber. He rang the local council and asked if they'd mind if he drove around and cleaned up all the little patches of wasteland, at no cost to them. He was trying to get free wood, of course. The council flatly refused and went so far as to say that they'd prosecute him if they caught him doing so. Most of this empty land doesn't even BELONG to the council! It's common land, not actually owned by anyone. So surely any timber, scrap metal and building material that's been (illegally) dumped there is the property of everyone. Which, you'd think, would mean the first guy to come haul it away has the right to. Apparently not!

We get the usual guff about using buses as well. Same here as there. Buses are rarely more than half full. Often completely empty. Most people, including myself, do anything they can to avoid using a bus. I really DO have better ways to spend my time than listening to some old biddy telling her friend about her gall stones, dodgy hip and the questionable lifestyles of her extended family. Plus it takes about 4 or 5 times as long to get anywhere on public transport as it does to drive. That's obviously working well as a transport policy, isn't it?

With regard to renewable energy. If you live in a city in the UK, the answer (at least as far as generating anything like the electricity you need, rather than a couple of token panels for bragging rights down the pub) is simply NO. You need planning consent to do just about anything to a house here. Ask if you can put a wind turbine up and it will be a definite NO. Too noisy, risk of blowing over, eyesore, etc.

PVs and solar water heat do, in theory, qualify for generous grants. The catch..

They MUST be installed by professional, accredited companies. I've got quotes from a few, just for laughs. The typical cost: £12000 to install £5000 worth of PVs, cable and inverter. And remember, if that's not grid tie, you then need to pay another contractor to install a secondary electrical system to your house. And a plasterer to make good all the damage from chasing out cable runs in the wall....

You aren't legally allowed to do anything but the most basic electrical work yourself. You MUST use a contractor. And if you say 'screw it! How are they gonna know?' and the planning office finds out, they can quite legally send someone round to rip out all the things you did. Then they send you a bill for doing so.

Most of the really good subsidies for alternative energy are only for grid tie systems, too. If you live in the middle of nowhere and want the same stuff installed, you get next to nothing, as you aren't sharing your energy surplus with the grid. What surplus? Most, if not all, of the in-town' PV systems I've seen are good only for reducing your bill. They aren't big enough to replace the grid. Oh, by the way. I checked with my current utility company and they will pay me £0.04 for each KWh I give them, while charging me £0.07 to buy it back when the sun goes down. The guy I spoke to was basically trying to talk me out of it, with the 'you'll never cover your installation costs' argument.

Sure seems like they're trying to STOP us from being green, don't it?

[Jeff7]

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It depresses me at some times. When I see people driving their big Mercedes or buying huge 100" plasma TVs I wonder if they have any idea what is coming.

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I saw an article, probably in a newspaper somewhere, that there's software of some sort becoming available that lets you use your "idle" plasma screen TV as a piece of wall art. Let you display either static or moving pictures for hours upon hours a day. Might as well go turn on your idle car engine too, just to wow neighbors with the sound of it running all day.

[farmerfrank]

In reality the world has only about a 3 month supply of food. The population is actually above what it can sustain permanently. Presently a large percenatge of the people are going hungry( estimates are 20%) China can exist with its population for 2 reasons. One is that they buy much of their food and secondly every square foot has some type of food growing in it, including flowerpots in the window sills. Right now the earth is being sustained by its "fat" reserves, that is the oil that makes the fertilizers that gives the super yields. Take that away and probably 3/4 of the world would be looking at an empty fridge. Eating just vegetables would help alot since the process of raising meat is rather inefficient but who can survive without BBQ'ed steak. The world is much more fagile than we think.

[BeenzMeenzWind]

I get 'Spongebob Squarepants' and 'Fairly Odd Parents' on my screen nearly all the time the kids are around, so a moving artwork would be a bloody improvement. Don't have a plasma screen, though. Even ignoring the energy cost for a big 'telly', I'm somewhat reluctant to pay that kind of money for something I watch about 4 hours a week. 'American Chopper', 'Star Trek: Enterprise' and sometimes 'Scrapheap Challenge / Junkyard Wars' in case anyone's interested, which they probably aren't. lol

[boarder girl]

Amen!

[electrondady1]

this whole imbalance stems from the giant strides our tech. has made in relation to our social systems. i think the population of our earth should be perhaps 20% of what it is. kind of hoping it could be a concious effort on the part of humanbeings as opposed to the result of ecological disasters , resource wars , plauges etc. humans have come a long way since we were mostly leopard food. it's time we start thinking long term. changes will be required in terms of religeous. political and industrial practices. i'm optimistic , i think we'll be alright. but we can't carry on the way we have been .  the sooner we steal the future back from the kings of greed  the better.