Author Topic: The Bloom Box  (Read 596 times)

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Perry1

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Re: The Bloom Box
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2010, 09:47:24 AM »
Vanadium redox cells are interesting and I do think they have a future for power quality applications but remember they have no capacity ro 'create' power, only store it. They are just big electrolyte flowing batteries.


Perry

« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 09:47:24 AM by Perry1 »

richhagen

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Re: The Bloom Box
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2010, 04:42:16 PM »
here is an article on research related to one of the two things that have traditionally been Achilles heels for this technology:


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090521184437.htm


It could offer potentially higher efficiency than a gas turbine, or a reciprocating engine if they can work out the kinks which basically relate to the mean time between failure and the cost of maintaining these types of units.  The Bloom Boxes they have installed are still running off of fossil fuels though.  You would have to come up with the methane from somewhere to power it.  


The solar panels on the roof are gathering their power from the sun by comparison, hence they don't need a natural gas line to function.  I would think it would be better to ramp up the amount of solar there to start with.  If you can ramp that up and couple that with some type of massive storage, pumped hydro or other existing technologies for example, to give you the equivalent of a baseline power plant, then you would really have something.  Rich

« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 04:42:16 PM by richhagen »
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Perry1

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Re: The Bloom Box
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2010, 05:19:49 PM »
So the information is out now and data sheets are posted on their web site. I think it is pretty clear now this is yester-years fuel cell technology with a bold new helping of fluff and PR. I say that tongue in cheek because there have been some new improvements but nothing above incremental.


They post the efficiency of their box as 50% conversion efficiency, based on lower heating value of fuel vs electrons out. That's pretty low by 10 yr ago standards for fuel cells. There is also no ability to capture waste heat further handicapping them against other SOFC/Phos Acid, and even some of the high temp PEM systems. They claim twice the efficiency as grid power but we all know combined cycle plants running on nat gas are above 50%. They are using the same old distributed generation model to justify the great increase in efficiency. Are they taking into account the huge transmission losses incurred in piping large amounts of nat gas to everyone's home? How much energy per cu-ft of nat gas will be consumed pumping it all over the place? The cost of the enormous compressors at the gas substations. The power to run those. I bet that is not taken into account in any of their calc's. If you were trying to move energy from one place to another which would you prefer, wires and their electrical resistance or pumping it through a pipe and all the compression/flow resistances associated with it? This is where distributed generation models always have and still do fall apart. You want electrons at your house and the fuel comes from somewhere else. 'Wellhead to light bulb' efficiency calculations which are a dirty secret never discussed show that distributed generation does not fare well.


On closer inspection you also see that their pricing curves (stating that they are competitive with grid power) are based on huge federal subsidies piled on top of California subsidies for their technology. Perhaps this is the beginning of corporately sponsored cap and trade, sprouting up right in front of us.


The hype on this is incredible and the media comments, and especially the comments left by the 'average people' on the different forums are laughable. They have done a good job of making people think this is the next big thing. Not one critical question has been asked nor answered.


If you run the math you will see that yes, Google may have saved $100k in electric bills due to the unit providing electricity. I think what is not mentioned is that their natural gas bill probably went up by $90k. Funny how that is omitted.


I chuckle about the $3000 price for the home unit. When we were trying to make a similar unit we had Deloit & Touche do a bunch of market research for us. They kept telling us it would have to cost $3k. Tell people it will cost $3k, that's what the entry price point has to be.


Perry

« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 05:19:49 PM by Perry1 »

Bruce S

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Re: The Bloom Box
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2010, 01:54:30 PM »
Perry;

 Thanks for sifting through the hype and finding the info.

This'll be another wait and see deal.


Cheers;

Bruce S

« Last Edit: February 25, 2010, 01:54:30 PM by Bruce S »
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dnix71

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Re: The Bloom Box
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2010, 02:24:13 PM »
The best reason for decentralizing is security. A "Carrington Flare" today would effectively end civilization by bringing down the grid and destroying the high voltage step up transformers needed to push electricity far away from the plant.


Even a couple of properly placed pulse nukes (a hundred miles up, or so) would do the same thing to the US.

« Last Edit: February 25, 2010, 02:24:13 PM by dnix71 »

fabricator

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Re: The Bloom Box
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2010, 04:56:10 PM »
Emp is line of sight, it would take more than a couple to fry the entire CONUS.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2010, 04:56:10 PM by fabricator »
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ADMIN

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Re: The Bloom Box
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2010, 07:32:00 AM »
I did a feature about the Bloom Box for my weekly column on Sunpluggers. It's here:


http://sunpluggers.com/columns/dan-fink/2010/02/on-and-off-the-grid-000109.php


Media coverage was really bad on this thing -- total confusion about what's power, what's energy, what's "green," and whether this thing can save you money.


Hopefully my article clears some of this up!


ADMIN

« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 07:32:00 AM by ADMIN »

Bruce S

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Re: The Bloom Box
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2010, 03:01:42 PM »
Dan F;

 Nice write up, I liked the analogy to water and dipping.

Sad to say though, most people will not read the whole thing as they may have to do a little extra thinking.


Will be interesting to hear the responses you get from that post/blog.


Cheers

Bruce S

« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 03:01:42 PM by Bruce S »
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Perry1

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Re: The Bloom Box
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2010, 04:19:26 PM »
I liked your article Dan and this whole episode made me realize just how easy it is to manipulate the media.

I would question your remark that Bloom has succeeded in significantly bringing down the cost of fuel cells. UTC has been selling the PC25 fuel cell which runs on nat gas and puts out twice the power for 3/4 of the cost of the Bloom box. They have 250 installed in the field right now. I struggle to find any great innovation in Bloom's technology. When their spec sheet was released my fears were confirmed.


There was a huge innovation here. But the reward goes to 'Outcast Communications' the Evian drinking, clove cigarette smoking, way trendier than I'll ever be, PR firm that managed to propel yesterdays technology into another 15 minutes of fame based on the tax payer subsidized handouts of a state that will probably never get out of debt.


Perry

« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 04:19:26 PM by Perry1 »

terry5732

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Re: The Bloom Box
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2010, 07:08:56 PM »
There is nothing new about


Just a scam to make greenies who don't know any science feel better

« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 07:08:56 PM by terry5732 »

Ronnn

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Re: And this was of interest here because?
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2010, 11:37:23 AM »
Hey Tom I really like the thrust of your thinking on this subject.


Ron

« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 11:37:23 AM by Ronnn »

terry5732

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Re: The Bloom Box
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2010, 04:25:19 PM »
Your article has some errors


"The potential results of a massive shift to fuel-cell electricity in the U.S. would not be miraculous, but would still be dramatic: Less dependence on foreign oil"


This would not change the need for petroleum in any way. Almost no oil is used for electrical generation in the US.


"Fuel cells convert a mixture of oxygen and fuel (such as natural gas) into electrical energy without combustion or moving parts, and with significantly lower emissions of carbon than traditional natural-gas-burning steam turbines."


The same amount of CO2 is produced by either method.


Despite the wild claims of cheap abundant US natural gas, the US imported over 3.7 million million cubic feet of natural gas last year. There is no magic surplus to use for electrical production.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 04:25:19 PM by terry5732 »

fabricator

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Re: The Bloom Box
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2010, 06:21:40 PM »
The last time they started with the "endless supply of natural gas" crap, they slapped up a bunch of natural gas power plants and the price went through the roof, some of the smaller plants around here shut down six months after they were built.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 06:21:40 PM by fabricator »
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

mojojojo

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Re: The Bloom Box
« Reply #46 on: March 06, 2010, 04:19:02 AM »
I've just seen it now on Megavideo. It's interesting.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 04:19:02 AM by mojojojo »