NY Grid Tie Reality Check

[Dave B]

 Check out this billing statement from National Grid in NY State.

http://www.fieldlines.com/images/scimages/57/Nat_Grid_Billing.jpg

 663 KWH @ .04524 = $29.99 in actual electric usage.

 The amount due is $100.94

 $70.95 in service, tax and delivery charges etc.

 Now lets grind this out a bit. Lets take $100.94 and divide this by .04524 the actual KWH cost of electricity. We get the equivelant of 2231 KWH worth of electricity.

 In other words (I realize there are many ways to crunch the numbers) but very simply put in actual electrical cost this bill equates to 2231 KWH of electricity. That is 1568 KWH above and beyond what was used at the KWH rate of .04524.

 OK, so let's think about this in terms of Grid Tie. Again, and very simply, a residence next door that is grid tied would need to produce 2231 KWH to use 663 KWH themselves and the rest or 1568 KWH excess goes to Nat. Grid to stay even or a zero electric bill. This is to equal the Nat. Grid bill indicated for next door of $100.94 for 663 KWH of usage. ($.15 per KWH)

 This all assumes that they (the Grid) pays you back at the KWH rate you pay of .04524 per KWH.

 If you could produce 2231 KHW of power per month and be paid $.15 per KWH as Nat. Grid is being paid you would earn $334.65 per month or $4,015.80 per year. (a very good sized battery bank)

 Just some realistic figures from NY State and National Grid.

 Dave B.

 

[watermanhfl]

Dave,

I am grid tied to same National Grid using Solar.  The trick is to make about the same as you use ON AVERAGE.  NY National Grid Nets out once a year so you can make more than you use one month and bank that for next month.  They settle up once a year and if you have a great system they would then pay you the market rate(not much)for any extra you made.

But if you think of grid as a 100% eff. battery it is a good deal.  I have had a few months were I am paying just a connect charge of $16 plus a bit.  Never make more than I use but close some months.

We meet once in Cortland a few years back on a parts run.  My 10'turbine is still runing and indirectly lowers my grid bill.  I call sunny days "$5 days" as that is about what I save. 26kw x .19/kw

I pay a bit higher per Kw because I buy from a Renewable source and have National Grid deliver it.  Plus my usage is lower so fixed costs are a higher %.  See my Net Meter a few days after install with a credit showing.(in my files, could not post it)  Then came clouds for a few days and bust my bubble.

Sunny or windy, $$ are paid back slowly.

Ant

[TomW]

Ant;

This picture only one with "meter" in it?:

[Dave B]

Hi,

 I think I remember at the time talking briefly with you about grid tie solar. If you are happy with what you have that is great.

 I would be very interested to know more about your solar system in regards to installed suggested system total cost (per KW), rebates, grants etc. and your final cost to you per KW for your grid tied system installed.

 Omitting any other energy source like wind that you may have what is your total average KWH produced per month by your solar system ?

 Being grid tied you must pay a connection fee and this sounds about what I pay at $16.00 per month ? Correct me if I am wrong but to pay just the connection fee would then require approx. 400 KWH of your power even at .04 per KWH ?

 I keep trying to justify Grid Tie any way I can, I can't see it. The incentives and grants etc. are exciting when you think only in terms of say a $50,000.00 costing $25,000.00. This sounds so much like saving $25,000.00 that for some I guess this works. When I crunch the numbers of purchasing the equipment and putting in a generous install and maintenance fee I always seem to come up with about half the cost of a suggested grid tie system cost. Also, co-incidentally the incentives and or grants etc. seem to knock the suggested system cost down by about 1/2 the cost.

 I can't help but think that grid tie systems will remain overly priced by about double so that the incentives (that the tax payer pays) even out to what a system should actually cost.

 I hate to be pessimistic but from a cost stand point and being (tied) at the mercy of the grid (who knows what they have in mind for charges for grid tied customers in the future) I can't justify it from just a feel good point of view. I will continue to use (and own) what I make until I can see it otherwise.

 I look forward to your replies so I can learn more.  Dave B.

 

[fabricator]

So, basically what it comes down to at least in your case, Dave grid tie is really not worth it because of all the phoney baloney crap added to your bill.

[watermanhfl]

Dave and others interested in Solar.

Don't get me wrong I love playing with wind but Solar just works with zero maintenance.  More money up front is the negative. I have had the solar setup for 2 ½ years and would do it again.

Some facts and thoughts.

$35,000 system, 3,400w, pole mounted, Outback Inverter with 48volt battery back-up.

Paid $21,000 to installer($14k grant from NYSERDA) and then received $7,000 back on taxes 6 months later.  

Figured about 16 yr pay back with 5% rate increases each year.

Saved cost of buying a couple of gas powered generators(not cheap) in my lifetime.  I hear they only last 15 yrs(wasting power during weekly test) and my panels have a 25 yr warranty with expected life of 50 yrs+.   We live out of town in Ice storm country so power outages happen 6 x year.  System is so good you do not even know grid went down till neighbors call.  Backs up most of house expect stove and dryer.  No Nat gas on our road and propane no way in my house.  Runs well, furnace, microwave, fridges, computers, lights etc. No problem.  Switch over is instant.  Generators have to warm up you know.

Some would say system is already paid back.  House value is up $20k/30k but I paid less at $14k.  Who would not want a house with $50 average grid bill vs $130 I used to pay.

Then there is the good feeling of knowing I am helping environment and have the security of being able to go off grid for weeks due to storm or terrorists or..  I have lots of battery.  AGM's in house and a big fork truck battery on turbine(same voltage for quick tie in if power off more than a day.

So you pay the $16 connect charge and taxes for less hassle with lifestyle changes that off-grid forces.  Vacuum when windy or sunny. Etc.  Be very frugal at night and in winter.  You have to pay this amount for the privilege of being on-grid so it should not enter into the solar or windy grid-tie payback.

Pole mount is way to go. The panels outlast the roof.  You can tilt them down in winter so snow slides off quick.  They run cooler for much improved output.  I regularly see 4,000 watts in the winter from clear skies, cold panels and reflection off the snow.  These are not brief moments either like wind.  Maintenance, I lied, 2x a year, 10 minutes to tilt the panels.  26 kWs on a clear cool day.  Upstate NY can work with solar especial at our high electric rates and rebates.

Some worry about inverter and controller losses but as mine are in my basement and 9 months a year we heat, what losses.

Output, all in Net kWatts AFTER Inverter and all other loses.125 in Dec, 300 in Feb,  400 in May, 425kW in Aug .  About 2/3 of my all electric house needs.(wood/oil heat)

To be a real RE enthusiast you have to have wind, solar PV and solar thermal.  I do but did it backwards order.  Solar thermal is the fastest to pay back and I did that last.  Water based drain back system in cold country.  Researched heavily and have redundant temp control so it don't freeze.  But that is another discussion.

Windy, sunny days and I am happiest

[imsmooth]

Dave,

I live in NJ.  I was fortunate to get "double-dipping", but even just one dip would be fine.  I will explain.

I have 12.5kw of solar panels costing $100k.  NJ paid me a rebate of $60k (one dip).

I saved $1500/year for electicity based on rates 4 years ago.  I do not know what my yearly bill would be now.  I generate about 13 SRECs/year and got $675/SREC last year (second dip).  On top of that I still make some excess which is converted to a $ credit on a yearly basis.  My break-even with the rebate and sale of SRECs is 4 years, and I have not had to pay for electricity once since the installation.

The rebate is less now, so the break-even is probably closer to 8 years.

[dnix71]

I can see where it wouldn't pay to grid-tie without rebates and subsides.

The best way ahead is conservation. The second best way is conservation and did I mention conservation?

My bill has been $10/mo for 4 months straight [one kw/hr/day]. I still cook, run the wash, irrigate the lawn with canal water and have two porch lights on the grid. My solar and batteries [off-grid] do the rest. If you want to get ahead, use less.

The energy use in this country is obscene. In the warehouse bay I pack and ship, there are 16 400 watt high bay lights and 20 twin-8' 60-watt linear flourescent fixtures, plus computers and a 200' long 3-phase conveyor.

I use less than the equal of one high bay at home. If there was a battery I could fit in my pocket I could steal more than I need at home and they wouldn't even see it on their bill. Even the street light outside my apartment building uses more than I do.

When I was a kid it wasn't like this in America. Families had one car, one tv, and one phone. No one suffered for it. We didn't even have a/c at home until I was 6. This is in Florida. My elementary school didn't have a/c either. I don't ever remember it being a problem.

[SparWeb]

Dave,

Wow there is a lot more extra "stuff" on your bill than on mine.  On my bill there are several "riders" that go up and down every month that represent what the company spends on building an upkeep of the transmission and distribution network, plus on administration.  Summer months I pay more for these fees than for the electricity itself.

There seems to be a different mix of rules and regulations in every district, so where you may have rebates and grants, I have Zero to look forward to if I were to grid-tie.  Seems you don't get a contract with a fixed rate, so who knows how much you'll get per month.

Your electric company also seems to keep the price per kWhr very low.  Is that because of nuclear or coal power?  Can't be anything else if it's below 5 cents.

Some people around here are organizing to promote a "feed-in-tariff" law from the province, taking the lead from Ontario which pays - can you believe this - up to 80 cents per kWhr generated by solar with over 50% domestic content.

If anyone in NY is trying to do the same thing, you might want to sign their petition.

[Dave B]

Like I said,

  Look at the outrageous KW suggested pricing on these grid tie solar systems. $10.00 per KW, you have got to be kidding me. We see the same for grid tied wind also.

  It's a scam that the tax payer pays half of disquised as rebates, incentives, grants etc.

  Imsmooth : if you saved $1,500.00 on electric in a year and lets say the KWH price was .05 then this equates to

30,000 KWH of electricity. If you saved this much then how much power for the year do you actually use ?

  The numbers can be twisted and turned and played with all day. Bottom line is what was the price per KW of the system and how much extra power do you have to make for the grid to pay for it ?

  I guess I look at sales the same way. Some people figure they save 50% buying something at half price. I save 150% of what they spent by not buying it at all.

 Half full or half empty I guess.

  Dave B.

[Dave B]

 What I meant to say is : Look at the outrageous per Watt (not KW) suggested pricing on these grid tie solar systems. $10.00 per watt, you have got to be kidding me. We see the same for grid tied wind also.

 Dave B.

[imsmooth]

The $1500/year is based on the price the electric company charges me plus their delivery charge.  I use about 12-15mwh/year.

[cardamon]

Dave B,

Im not really buying what you are saying. First I would say the deliver component is part of the cost of electricity, you're not going to find huge economies of scale in power generation down the street.  Also, I think, the meter just keeps track of net KWH so, at any given moment whether you are offsetting your usage to some degree or selling back, you effectively are credited at the supply+delivery+various B.S. per KWH rate.  I think what you are saying would only be the case if there was a separate meter for ingoing and outgoing power and the credit for outgoing was calculated at KWH X supply rate, and ingoing cost calculated at KWH X (supply+delivery+various B.S. per KWH) rate.  Im not grid tied but I dont think thats how it works.

Regards.

[DamonHD]

Grid tie can be net metered (I used to be so here in the UK by accident, but that's how it works for many US utilities I believe), or with separate import and export meters, or as in the UK based on total generation plus a (smaller) separate amount for exported power, ie with as many as 3 meters.

There are many many possible payment arrangements in grid-tie, and for example because of the recent changes here I shall be on two different systems simultaneously...

Rgds

Damon

[Dave B]

 Figure the total cost per watt of an installed grid tie system. It doesn't excite me to hear of rebates and grants etc. on a doubly over priced system that will then (save) you up to 50% off or more. Figure the actual dollar figure of the installed grid tie system (your dollars spent)

 My total cost per KWH paid to the grid here averages .15 to .22  So, any power I generate (it's the same stuff) is worth this much per KWH to me.

 Let's use 500 KWH per month for an easy figure @ .20 per KWH, this is how it must be figured. This includes the connect fee of about $16.00 and all the other stuff thrown in besides.

 OK, my bill would be $100.00 for the month. I would be one happy camper if Nat. Grid paid me .20 per every KWH I generated. Read about Ant's grid tied solar system again, it doesn't happen that way at least where he and I live.

 I don't like to use the word (save) because you only save if you don't spend. Purchasing a supposed $50,000.00 grid tied system for $25,000.00 with grants and rebates etc. isn't saving $25,000.00 it's spending $25,000.00.

 Let's say you use 0 KWH per month and you still pay the $16.00 luxury connect fee so the grid can purchase your electricity for .05 per KWH. If you use zero power per month and could produce 500 KWH per month to sell back to the grid you would have to produce 500,000 KWH of electricity to pay for your $25,000.00 investment. This would be 1000 months or 83.3 years. Oh, I almost forgot, the grid will want their additional $16,000.00 connection fee for the 1000 months also. Of course if you wanted to use any power in 83 years it would take a bit longer to pay off.

  Just some fun with numbers.

  Dave B.

     

[Dave B]

What I meant to say at the end ... Of course if you needed to use any grid power in 83 years it would take a bit longer to pay off.

  Dave B.

[Dave B]

What I meant to say at the end ... Of course if you needed to use any grid power in 83 years it would take a bit longer to pay off.

  Dave B.

[SparWeb]

Yeah, I think Mark Twain said that there are lies, damned lies, and then there are statistics...

It's the popular perception that when you "know the numbers" you have the single, unique answer.  But once a system develops some complexity, the numbers can be interpreted in multiple ways.  The user can select, ignore, or combine the facts that they want, to present a picture that suits them.

I wouldn't fret about the cost to "the taxpayer".  That taxpayer is as likely to be you, me, or those dorks riding quads through my neighbour's backyard over the long weekend.  I am comforted by the fact that someone considers the use of solar power to be worth spending taxpayers' money upon (or at least politically expedient).  

If you really want to step back and see the cost/benefit in the big picture, you are doomed.  Nobody can even agree if it's a zero-sum game or if renewable energy has a net positive economic/environmental impact.  On the local level, however, it can be made to benefit you economically, maybe even environmentally, too.

[cardamon]

I am in NY also and would be national grid if I was connected.  We have done grid tie solar systems in Nat grid territory too.  Dave, it seems your beef is that in NY we only have net metering up to the break even point - If you use more than or as much as you make, than they are basically paying you .20 per KWH, or whatever all the charges that are based per KWH.  Also a NYSERDA funded system isnt supposed to produce more than you use.  I would like to see Net metering apply to any amount of power produced or a feed in tariff type of setup.

[Dave B]

 I don't really have a beef because I will continue to invest in my own power production so I can generate, own and use my own power at will.

 If I have a beef it is seeing all the smoke and mirrors marketing of Alternative Energy. This unfortunately tricks many of the uninformed into poor purchase decisions exactly as planned. It's marketing I understand but what concerns me most is that those who get stung now may have a lot less ambition as well as money to invest in what they firmly believed in as doing their part toward a cleaner environment.

 It's a race, as more people gain back some independence other related costs as well as taxes will keep rising. I don't have to look any further than this to be motivated about owning my own power.

 Dave B.  

 

[hysteresis]

Well stated.

Several years ago, A complete system with 2 wind turbines and good sized solar installation and battery bank on a business near a Northern IA city abandoned any interest in grid tie with the outback when the utility wanted an $1,800.00 application fee, which was non refundable, and there was an up to 18 month wait for the decision as to whether or not they would accept it, aside from the other grid constraints as mentioned above..

Also, if you opt for the local power company to provide "green" power from wind turbines in some states, NY being one, they charge .10 to .15 more per kwh for this power, even though it's all coming over the same utility lines with no interconnection changes anywhere whatsoever. The premium cost of installing the green power is their explanation.

Smoke and mirrors is an under statement. Extortion sounds better.

In the Iowa prairies, the local people have gotten another 10% increases (3rd one) for cost overruns in the installation of hundreds of giant wind farm turbines, which will be sending power to FPL - Florida Power and Light when they are all installed. Why don't they put the surcharge to the people in Florida where the power is going to. ?

That old "Ready Kilowatt figurine" logo from the 60's is turning his his grave.

The logic of self sufficiency is ironclad.