I wish to apologize to everyone here...

[Oilburner]

I spent days reading posts on here and I saw several people state there was no such thing as free energy. I also saw posters state that free energy = over unity and so stupid as I am I interchanged the two definitions.

Then, being even more stupid I posted a thread where a greenhouse could be heated at night using free energy and I used the words over unity.

What a mess!!!!

It now seems there is such a thing as free energy, it exists, just like a free lunch, all you have to do is add a little bit of power to walk or drive to pick up your lunch and digest it, or use some power to move the free heat to where you need it.

FREE ENERGY and collecting it and transporting and using it has got squat to do with perpetual motion and the accepted definition of "Over Unity" as regards to energy conservation.

I am a user of "Free Energy" and quite successful in doing it.

If someone here designs a "machine" that has an input of 100w and outputs 110w of energy in a different form then that is GREAT! that is what we need. Quit yelling at them because to do that their machine is in the sunlight or stuffed in a river.

My "machine" produces 2,000btu/h for ten hours for an energy input of 23 watts per hour for 24hrs. I think that is not bad.

In conclusion. "Free Energy" is NOT "Over Unity" or "Perpetual Motion"

Now, let us revisit http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/9/18/23485/4103 with different terminology.

Free Energy systems exist in the real world.    

By Oilburner, Section Rants & Opinion

Posted on Sun Sep 19th, 2004 at 12:48:05 AM CST

Please, please, define "Free Energy" as you see it or all is lost.

Notice I said "systems"

Let us take an hypothetical but potentially real world example.

There is a greenhouse on a small hill and below it is a stream. You need a small amount of water in the greenhouse but you have no power available to pump that water up to it.

"Hydraulic water rams are an inexpensive, creative way to pump water. These semi-efficient, self acting pumps use the force of water running down stream to pump water up an elevation: with six feet of drop, a hydraulic ram pump will lift water 100 feet up a hill."

OK, that gets us some water up the hill without using any power/energy/labor. Yes we are using the energy of the water flowing down the stream to do this, but it is "free" the water would have gone downhill anyway.

This greenhouse needs cooling in summer, what would it cost to run an air conditioner in there to "pump" out the heat as compared to using a solar chimney to create a draught and using the constantly flowing water we have from our water ram to cool the incoming air (swamp cooler)

Heating.

Do we use electricity to heat the greenhouse or do we use electricity to power a pump that moves heat from solar panels to a storage tank in daytime and then at night moves warm water to radiators within the greenhouse? just thinking about that one, if we took the water from the water ram output and put it through the solar panels then into the storage tank then out through the radiators we would not need any external power to heat the greenhouse at night.

This is an "ideal scenario" the objective was to keep a greenhouse coolish during the day and a bit warmer than ambient at night using no external power source except  a stream and the sun.

Compare the costs of that against the costs of energy for pumping, heating and cooling. If it costs less then you are getting "Free Energy" as in you are getting more out of the system (in regards to energy usage/wastage ) than you are putting in.

Get rid of "Over Unity" and insert "Free Energy" what a difference.......

[jacquesm]

Hey Oilburner,

No need to apologize, what with the 'creative' use of definitions here yours was but an unfortunate way of expressing yourself, instead of a conscious attempt to mislead.

Other favourites are: Power, Work, Volts (RMS or PEAK or open circuit), Current (Short circuit or normal load), COP and so on.

All your scenarios work and are in use at the present.

The storage tank / collector mechanism is used in passive solar hot water systems (doesn't even need a pump, just a check valve, as soon as the water in the greenhouse goes below the temperature in the storage tank it gets heavier, draws down the return and pulls in warmer water past the check valve !), the water ram is used in almost every car in a much simpler form (air venturi) to save on an extra pump for vacuum, and heat pumps (not explicit in your samples but implicit) are pretty much the ideal way to heat homes.

You're definitely on the right track with all of these, and you'll end up burning less oil

I'm all for free energy, firmly opposed to nonsense.

take care,

  Jacques

[Oilburner]

Aw, now you are making me feel bad.

Yes, my "Over Unity" post was a reaction to the "Free Energy" thread. It was a "troll" post. The two are different.

In my ideal world you MOVE energy around. You do not expend more than you have to.

I get really angry when I try to find information on how to pump a couple of gallons of water a minute from a shallow well and the discussion ends up involving alternators and batteries and inverters and 1/2hp pumps.

It is fun generating power from scrap iron, old motors and epoxy, but I get real world money from growing stuff when mother nature says it should not grow!

As for the name "oilburner" that refers to the fact I first posted on here trying to find a decent way of burning waste veggie oil to heat a greenhouse.

I spent all last winter trying, and nobody else here seems to have a solution either.

(waste veggie oil is a solid at 32F)

[iFred]

I would like to propose defining the term "free energy" such as

1.     water power (hydro & capillary action)
   
2.     Wind power (wind turbines)
   
3.     Solar (solar panels and cells, thermal energy)
   
4.     Utilizing Gravitational forces
   
   

Should we contain any of these other terms?

1.     pulsing and pulse motor systems and electronic charge control systems
   
2.     high voltage systems
   
3.     other??
   
   

This might seperate the issues and cause less arugments if we can agree on some basic fundemetal terms.

[Oilburner]

I agree over unity on that one Fred! (110%)

Free Energy is something you capture or harvest that costs you nothing and you are not stealing from someone else. I would go further and add that it is only free if it does not affect anyone or anything down the line... (As an example, you do not extract so much energy from a stream that the cooler water that results causes a problem for flora and fauna in that stream)

That is FREE energy. (and by now the non-scientists in here will have realised the word "free" means something you do not have to pay for as against the scientific definition of "free" as in "free electrons"

Free electrons, (electrons that have no particular opinion and will go wherever you want if you pay them enough or give them a push)

""electrons not bound to atoms. Free electrons can be generated by providing some external source of energy, which is equal to or greater than the electron-binding energy (see hydrogen H ). One effect by which free electrons can be generated is the photoelectric effect, where photons impinge on electrons in a substance and free them. Another method is heating of a material so that some electrons have enough thermal energy to leave the material.""

[Chester]

My main heat source is winter is certainly free. That is; the solar gain through my south facing glass, which provides 90% or more of my heat. The glass, by its position may even qualify as over unity, since it consumes no energy to speak of in relation to its function. It's all gain, since I need windows anyway and apparently the sun needs to shine, anyway. I don't see them draining energy from the Sun.  Yep. My glass doors could be over unity. They use no heat to create heat on one side of the space they separate. They are thermodynamically neutral, but just by being there, they create heat in my home way over their cost and the cost of their installation and consume negligible, if any, energy doing so. Way over unity; in that respect. But, I may be missing something. I await the reason they are not.

[Oilburner]

Your glass windows provide heat to your home but they are not over unity unless they move more heat energy into your living space during their lifespan than the energy it took to make them. (which I am sure they will do)

Score one more point for the Free Energy Kooks!

[devoncloud]

I think that you Ou'ers are trying to pull a fast one here.  Your windows are over unity??

First, the sun IS ENERGY.  the heat that it provides the earth IS ENERGY.  The fact that your windows take that energy and then trap it inside your home does not make it an overunity devise.  It makes it a heat trapping devise.  I assure you the window does not trap 10degrees worth of heat and transfer that ten degrees of heat into 20 degrees of heat.  That would be overunity.

Devon

[devoncloud]

sorry, did not mean to make it seem as everyone on this post is an OU'er, but there is at least one....... ;>)

anyway, I think that if anyone wants a good description of what an overunity devise is, look to Jac's overunity challenge.... his rules seem to be a pretty good one to me.

Devon

[Chester]

Come now. You are reaching.

On one side it is ten degrees, on the other side it is 70 degrees.

Yet it's the same amount of heat energy being radiated by the sun, on either side as a result of the Sun's cooling. And this machine has no impact on the Sun's cooling.

It's a machine that traps energy, sure. How else could it function over unity? It does so, well over and above the energy it uses doing so.

Leave it to the naysayers to move the goalposts.

[ghurd]

Aren't "Water", "Gravitational forces" and PE the same as far as most of us are concerned?

Do we dig a hole, so we can get energy by filling it up?

If the water has no heighth (PE), we can't use it. As long as the water isn't going 50mph on the horizontal (KE). That doesn't figure in the rain, which was evaporated by the sun, so that makes gravitational forces created by the sun! But without gravity, the clouds won't form and the rain won't fall. Without wind, the clouds don't move so they can drop the rain on the mountain. If there is no rain on the mountain, there is no drop, so there is no KE or PE, because there is no solar energy, which means there is no wind, thats created by solar energy! I didn't mean for this to happen when I started, it just happened.

My brain hurts.

To me "free" means it did not cost me money. I charge my batteries for "free".

But, I paid for the solar panels. Is that "free"?

My brain hurts more.

[tecker]

   I like it .Let's setup equations to establish the componats of  overunity as we understand it, so the doubt is removed . From a devices overall framwork we can then chart the validity and propose inprovments to attain the needed direction to the componant level.

[ghurd]

Now my brain is melting!

[jacquesm]

"As for the name "oilburner" that refers to the fact I first posted on here trying to find a decent way of burning waste veggie oil to heat a greenhouse.

 I spent all last winter trying, and nobody else here seems to have a solution either.

(waste veggie oil is a solid at 32F)

"

Interesting.

Maybe I can toss some ideas at you (that you have probably already tried

You seem to have a bootstrap problem, once your system is working it will keep on working as long as you don't shut it down right ?

Run an extra radiator into your veggie oil store, and put the feed for that radiator right next to the fuel line, insulate the two as if they are one.

Now you need to hook up an alternative source to get you going, something (wood fire, propane burner, anything will do) that will heat up the system to the point where all your veggie oil is fluid, then you start your pump and switch over to veggie oil. Switch off alternate source of heat and you're in business.

But you've probably already tried that

[devoncloud]

Naysayers keep the Creationists out of the scientific world, and needfully so I might add.  Windows work the same way in the cool as well.  if it is very cold outside, they will cool the inside of the home almost as much as they will heat it when it is warm.  I say almost becaus at night the windows are not being superheated by radiation from the sun, but they will cool a house down a good bit in comparison with a home with few windows.  Windows are doing the same thing as aluminum foil does in the oven, which is transfer temperature quickly to the food without allowing heat to readily escape from the dish.  When the dish is brought out, if the foil is left on it will insulate the dish better than if it was not on there, basically trapping the heat inside.  Surely you do not consider aluminum foil overunity as well, do you?

I certainly see your point, which is you certainly did not get windows for the purpose of heating your home yet they serve that purpose well for you at no additional cost.  I also see that you are only calling this overunity for the sake of the argument of getting the definitions set correctly, which is why I am chiming in that in order to call it overunity, it needs to produce more energy than it recieves, which is simply not the case.  the sun's radiation that it delivers is much more power input than the window's output of heat to your home.  I will not argue the point that it is very efficient, because it is extremely so and all we have to do is go get in our car after it has been in the sun for a couple of hours to figure that one out, but it is not overunity.

Devon

[devoncloud]

hey tecker, I am with you! sounds more scientific than  what is going on with most OU'ers right now, anyway! a step in the right direction!

devon

[Oilburner]

This winter I will be trying to keep the outdoor heat generation unit warm and on standby using the bases of a couple of old coffee makers.

The basic idea is I do a fast, intense, high output burn for around an hour which heats my 1000 gallons up 10-15 deg F or so and that allows the greenhouse to stay at around 45-50f all night.

This place has really changed in 24hrs. It turned from a RE place to an electricity generating site overnight. at 5 cents/Kwh then I don't need to generate it.

For anyone interested in burning WVO then http://pub42.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=3548766086&cpv=1 are a fun crowd.

For people interested in energy efficient homes and solar heating and PV generation then Alan at http://www.daycreek.com/ is a good guy. (read the journal from start to finish..... It is an eye opener)

I have no use for magnets, sorry and goodbye.

[Chester]

I most certainly DID get the windows with the idea of heating the home, and I constructed the home with the idea of trapping heat, so it doesn't leak out, which it doesn't.

When it is zero degrees on the outside, and we generally have several days of zero degree weather, if the sun is shining it usually maintains 70 degrees inside.

We do use some firewood, when the sun doesn't shine and at night. About 1/4 cord per year. But even the firewood is free for the cutting.

 

[Electric Ed]

Hey Chester, I like your earth-sheltered house.

Twenty-five years ago, when I was designing my house, I considered the earth-sheltered concept.

Sometimes I wish I had gone ahead with one. Instead I built above ground, with 8" thick walls, insulated slab-on-grade, and passive solar heating.

Some photos here - http://electric-ed.com/House/House1.htm

EE