Author Topic: "Homebrewed" E85 Alcohol Fuel (Read 2095 times)

Bruce S · « **Reply #33 on:** October 28, 2005, 09:09:01 AM »

Patrick,

You are correct about the boiling point. I keep my heater set at 50C or 122F , this makes the Alky sweat and begins the Alky steam that I'm looking for.

Gald to hear you're working with one as well. The more people with input the better.

I don't use barrels that large, can't in the city.

I am using 32 quart plastic food-grade for the outside unit and a 20 quart for the inside, this allows me to use a submirsable fish tank heater that will run the heat automatically.

I now from use that it takes a couple days for the Alky to be just about fininshed so I can shut off the heater and not burn it up like I did the last one.

Cheers!

Bruce S

Bruce S · « **Reply #34 on:** October 28, 2005, 09:14:47 AM »

NTL;

By using the 170F you are still safely below the boiling point of water but close enough to it that you are probably getting water steam along with Alky.

What was your output amount per hour and what was the total first run amount?

Try lighting the paper at night to see the pretty blue flame:-)))

I do get a higher proof at the 120F - 122F setting, less water vapor.

Also the higher proof the harder it will be to light, the wetted paper is a good way to test though.

I've been just throwing some on the wood in the fireplace.

Cheers!

Bruce S

Bruce S · « **Reply #35 on:** October 28, 2005, 09:18:58 AM »

G-

This sounds a like like the 6" column still that Mother Earth News mag built way back in the '70s.

There's put our something like 5 gals / hour with the first run already at 160P.

Do get pics if you can.

Cheers!

Bruce S

Bruce S · « **Reply #36 on:** October 28, 2005, 09:35:50 AM »

G-

Do you have a source for sugar beet pulp? I am jealous.

This is by far the highest producer of natural sugar and the easiest to get into a fermenting solution.

all you have to do with sugar beet pulp is grind the stuff wtih something like an apple masher, a carrot shreader works just as good. Boil the crushed pulp until its soft, let it cool down enough to not kill the yeast. While doing this get your yeast ready by adding it to a container of lightly sugared water. Once the beet pulp is cooled stir the yeast in really good and cover it in an air tight container ( with a "J" tube of course) and if it's a clear enough container watch until the bubbles stop could be 8 - 14 days, wait one more day just to be sure the yeast doesn't start up again, and distill it.

And there you are.

A couple tips, go twice as much water in weight as beet pulp, too little water and the ALky percentage will go too high too fast, better to have it take longer to ferment that burn up your yeast.

Cheers!

Bruce S

ghurd · « **Reply #37 on:** October 28, 2005, 09:49:44 AM »

I'll try, but it'll be 4 or 5 days.

Bruce S · « **Reply #38 on:** October 28, 2005, 12:08:52 PM »

NTL;

I finally found a mother_eart_news mag that has all the needed information for converting whole non-cracked corn. It's the june/july 1979 issue.

Making use of old yellow pages would be a good thing they use soy based ink which won't kill the yeast like other chemical-based inks will.

Try adding 1/4lb of paper shredded up along with the corn after the corn has "malted" this will give you the enzymes need to break the pulp down into useable sugar. Might be a big mess, but could be a big gain instead.

You'll need to cook this stuff together for at least 30 mins before letting it cool to add the yeast.

Bruce S

ghurd · « **Reply #39 on:** October 28, 2005, 01:52:13 PM »

Still here.

Don't kow how I missed it.

I used to drive a truck for a feed store.

Drive meaning carry a lot of heavy sh*t around.

Now I can't fully stand up, bend over, or sleep through the night.

Made less the minimum wage, if I included gas to get there.

(end rant)

It was very popular around 'fair time', like July and August.

Something related to fattening up stock right before sale.

Call a horse feed store, or 5, or 10. Prices vary, a LOT!

IIRC, it was like $4 per 50 pound bag? Delivered. Retail.

I more just remember it was REALLY CHEAP! Cheapest stuff/pound we delivered.

Even cheaper than 'shavings' (large sawdust) bought by the ton.

I figure a lot of the $4 was for the gas, truck, and me.

It would surely be 'a lot' cheaper by the ton.

Even cheaper if it was ordered a head of time,

and even cheaper if paid for a head of time and picked up

in a very timely manner. Maybe $60/ton with a little negotiations?

(at least in NE OH a couple years ago)

How do farmers make a living?

And its "much more fluffier" than corn flakes!

So #50 of beet pulp is a heck of a lot of 'wet beets'.

I honestly don't remember where you are. Call 4-H for good horse feed dealers.

And I might be ready for one of those steppers if there are any left.

G-

Bruce S · « **Reply #40 on:** October 28, 2005, 02:47:30 PM »

G-

I am in St.Louis, where the Cardinals lost to the Astros:-((

Oh well there's next year.

Can't even scare up any cast-offs at the framers market around here, everyones into making a buck.

Blows their minds when I go in giving free advice about making Alky and how cheap it would be to setup a NO-Fire still. Might just be me, but I remember growing up try your fellow man without expecting something in return.

I do have a couple of those stepper motors around and in good shape too.

Send me an address and I'll send one your way, I'm curious as to just how much one of these will take.

Being city locked for now, I can't put a windmill of any large size up without the lawn police complaining. Boy what would they say if they saw my basement stills:-))

My email is Brucedotstahlatgmaildotcom.

Hey if your up in NE OH just how close are you to Norm?

with #50 lbs of beet pulp I'd bet you could get a double batch run and come away with 25 - 30 gals 190P and still have enough stuff to chum a third run.

Sugar beets are the preffered stock in Brussels as it's so easy to get to sugar out of the ground up pulp. You can even tell the difference in the table sugar, Beet sugar is naturally white and cane sugar is naturally brown, and unlike the USA they don't bleach their sugars.

I have a business trip planned to Brussels and have already requested a tour of their beet processing plant, I'll see if I can take pics.

I do have a few people at the CO-OP I can call the see what they pay too.

Cheers!

Bruce

Bruce S · « **Reply #41 on:** October 28, 2005, 03:11:34 PM »

Chris

For permits here's a good place to go it has a bunch of pricey pretty moonshine stills, but it also has the information about the 10,000gal permit that is now free.

" http://www.coppermoonshinestills.com/id3.html "

I have standardized my rates at 1 1/4lbs sugar for every gallon of water, this will get you going pretty easy, along with one packet of bread yeast. This is by far the least costly and easiest way to learn and adjust for your water and altitude.

Hard water will need something to boost it along such as a potassium nitrate for yeast food.

Hope this helps;

Cheers!

Bruce S

pyrocasto · « **Reply #42 on:** October 28, 2005, 05:55:30 PM »

Ok I've got one gallon batch in the works. The balloon on top is filling very slow, but it is filing. How will I know when the bubbles stop(since I can see much bubling action)? Will keeping it at room temerature be good enough, or do I need to heat it around 120 like for distilling?

Thanks guys,

pyrocasto · « **Reply #43 on:** October 28, 2005, 08:16:41 PM »

What all did you have to go through to get your permit, or who did you contact? A little confused, but by the article it looks like you just need to record the gallons to pay taxes each year.

nothing to lose · « **Reply #44 on:** October 29, 2005, 04:07:34 AM »

Well, I screwed up!

My first run with the water tank ended with garbage water instead of usable alky.

I was getting a good bit of good stuff I think at first, then probably everything heated too much and I cooked off a bunch of water. It only had a mild smell and when I mixed just a little with a small amount of gas in a sauce pan it did not mix at all. I just had water blob under gasolene

I am sure the copper tubing heated up too much, not enough condensing either. I had noticed a strong smell, fumes comming from the gas can. I think what I did was condense the water and let the alky float away as vapors.

That was a small test run using the last of an old 5gal batch.

I had problems and a broken pump, so I was not able to get the 30gal barrel yet from the other house. Can't lift it into the truck so I was going to pump it into an empty barrel in the truck. Hopefully get it today and try again.

Sometimes I have bad days where I am dumb as a rock

I should have known I was getting the wort way to hot. The copper tube was hot and not cooling as much as I wanted. I put a cold wet rag on it and saw mild steam as it heated and the wet tubbing dried very fast after wetting it.

DUH....

Some word of advice, don't trust a thermometer rigged up when doing such things as this, think about it and use some sense, I did not. The thermometer never got over 160F

as I recall, and it was on the tubbing right at the tank, should have been the hottest part of it.

Well at least I should have a clean tank and tubing now that I steamed it out.

nothing to lose · « **Reply #45 on:** October 29, 2005, 04:58:42 AM »

The permit is a simple form, don't have the link here I downloaded the PDF on a different computer. Had trouble finding it, was linked from a website selling stills and such, but the link would not work for me at that time. It's online, may have to surf the GOV site to find it or call and ask.

Department of the Treasury

Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and trade bureau

TTB form 5110.74

Toll free number, 1-877-882-3277

Cininnati, OH Address

Don't know how to post a PDF here or I would post the form. Later I might upload it to my website and post the link if people want.

pyrocasto · « **Reply #46 on:** October 29, 2005, 06:02:08 PM »

Would very much appreciate an email with the PDF if possable. ;-)

Too bad it isnt easier to break down cellulose such as sawdust and newspaper. I could make sawdust gasahol forever. From what I've found so far you need either 2 hours of 400 degree steam, or sulfuric acid, which then makes the process easy.

nothing to lose · « **Reply #47 on:** October 30, 2005, 06:37:11 PM »

A couple links, comming next post in this thread

nothing to lose · « **Reply #48 on:** October 30, 2005, 07:17:38 PM »

Alcohol Fuel producers permit may be downloaded here

http://ttb.gov/forms/5000.htm#alcohol

it is form TTB F 5110.74

Application and Permit for an Alcohol Fuel Producer Under 26 U.S.C. 5181

Pretty simple little form, easier than a 1040EZ

Pass it along, everyone should need one of these

Also interesting reading is the fact the alcohol does not have to be rendered UNFIT for drinking when used on site.

"

Sec. 19.995

Use on premises

Spirits may be used as a fuel on the premises of the alcohol fuel plant at which produced and need not be rendered unfit for beverage use. Proprietors using spirits on the plant premises shall keep the applicable records concerning such dispositions as provided in Sec. 19.986(c).

http://ttb.gov/alcohol/info/faq/subpages/19_995.htm

"

Hmmm, so I could have a few gallons of pure 200 proof sitting around with out problems for use in my lawn mower, generator, etc.. on site useage

Some pretty good reading at TTB.GOV if you can find what your actually looking for.

For instance the question of homebrew beer or wine has come up also, the quantity alloughed is 100 gallons for one adult, or 200 gallons for 2 or more adults per household, per year of each. This does not overide any local or state laws that apply though.

pyrocasto · « **Reply #49 on:** October 31, 2005, 10:18:50 AM »

Thanks alot for the application!

I'm thinking I'll do a 30gallon mash barrel in a 55gallon distill barel. You guys have any idea of the 24-hour output of one(as needed in the application)? Also, it asks about security and locking up the spirits, didnt know what I needed to do in that arena. Maybe put a lock on the barrel lids?

One thing I need to call the local police about is age requirments. I'm only 19 so didnt know if this would fall under the 21 being alcohol, but being for fuel only I dont know.

TomW · « **Reply #50 on:** October 31, 2005, 10:45:05 AM »

Chris;

Interesting question on age requirements.

I see underage folks buying ethanol blend fuel all the time and nobody seems to ever have been arrested here for selling to minors or possession as a minor.

Just an observation. Your state may be different or maybe nobody has looked at it this way.

Another point is that in this state minors can possess and consume alcohol at home perfectly legally with parental supervision. As always, your mileage may vary.

Cheers.

TomW

benjamindees · « **Reply #51 on:** October 31, 2005, 02:36:15 PM »

Another point is that in this state minors can possess and consume alcohol at home perfectly legally with parental supervision.

Here too. In fact, not just at home. Anywhere. It may be illegal for licensed distributors to give it to you, but your parents always can.

And, while distillation is regulated by the state for safety reasons, brewing and winemaking for personal use are protected rights here. A citizen of majority age may exercise those rights without restraint.

But just thought I'd point out ethanol fuel has been denatured. You wouldn't want to drink it. It doesn't fall under liquor laws.

For Chris, from somebody who remembers being 19, and being only slightly jaded at that point, let me tell you the last thing you want to do is call the police and ask them questions. They are not lawyers. They are not paid to act in your best interests. They don't get bonuses and promotions for helping you. They get bonuses and promotions for arresting you. If there is any grey area at all, you can just assume they will tell you it's illegal. They may not break down your door to arrest you. But they'll tell you not to do it regardless. You're just as capable of reading your state statutes as they are. And while there are undoubtedly many people in your community who would fight for your right to create your own fuel, and probably your own drink, they are more likely to be wearing black robes in the county courthouse than answering the phones at the local police station. That's just my experience.

Bruce S · « **Reply #52 on:** October 31, 2005, 03:31:20 PM »

Chris

To help make the problem of legal issues; you could go get a galvanised pipe or something like that and put it in the bottom of the barrel that will be hloding the Alky. This makes the Alky POISON!! and any ATF person that sees this will know it right off.

However, I would get the permit first and though I have looked at the permit questions,if there is a comment se4ction add to the description that galvanised pipe in the setup.

Bruce S

Bruce S · « **Reply #53 on:** October 31, 2005, 03:37:10 PM »

Sorry gotta read before hitting the post key.

The previous post should say "haven't read the permit yet, but if there is a comment section add a description about having galvanized in the output section of holding tank.

Cheers!

Bruce S

pyrocasto · « **Reply #54 on:** October 31, 2005, 06:46:01 PM »

I'm not worried about calling police, as the only ones I can are friends of mine(dated their daughter). Not worried about having problems with them as they are who I talk to usually about legalities. ;-)

pyrocasto · « **Reply #55 on:** October 31, 2005, 06:47:52 PM »

So after distilling and such just have a piece of galvanised steel in the holding jug/barrel to show them I'm really only using it for fuel. If anyone was to see for some reason that is.

Bruce S · « **Reply #56 on:** November 01, 2005, 11:05:52 AM »

That would be correct.

nothing to lose · « **Reply #57 on:** November 03, 2005, 10:20:59 AM »

"Another point is that in this state minors can possess and consume alcohol at home perfectly legally with parental supervision.

Here too. In fact, not just at home. Anywhere. It may be illegal for licensed distributors to give it to you, but your parents always can.

And, while distillation is regulated by the state for safety reasons, brewing and winemaking for personal use are protected rights here. A citizen of majority age may exercise those rights without restraint.

But just thought I'd point out ethanol fuel has been denatured. You wouldn't want to drink it. It doesn't fall under liquor laws."

That is interesting, but check to be certain!! Not a very well published matter of parents being able to give the kids booze. I don't try to know everything, but that's something I never heard of till now. Could be I just never looked for it.

Anyway I would want to have that printed out and hanging on my wall in easy reach before I give my 14yr old a case of beer, just in case!

I know of the beer and wine making being legal, but then I wonder how hard you have to fight for that right in one of those crappy DRY COUNTIES where the sale and use is prohibitted. Of course those hypocrytes normally prohibit the sale of take home stuff, alough various bars (private clubs), then gripe about drinking and driving also.

As far as fuel is concerned, that part should be as legal as buying gas at the station, neither are drinkable. So under age I would denature it all.

Grey area here though.

It is stated that the alcohol does not have to be denatured (poisioned) for on premise use. So if you had some sitting around for the lawn mower you haven't denatured then what? You would be under age with legal moonshine???

Now that's what I would call grey area there!

Of course it's still not legal to moonshine, but that's basically what the fuel is untill it has been denatured right, and if not required to denature the fuel for on premise use, then you have ?

ghurd · « **Reply #58 on:** November 04, 2005, 06:58:31 AM »

Heater was moved. Trying to track it down.

G-

pyrocasto · « **Reply #59 on:** November 04, 2005, 08:36:57 PM »

I'm going to apply under my own name so we will find out shortly hopefully, if there is any age restrictions to it. If I find out there are and I cant get a permit, my father will apply(since he will be helping me).

pyrocasto · « **Reply #60 on:** November 08, 2005, 10:53:13 PM »

Just thought I'd update. Made a call to the ohio atf office and found you must be 21 years +.

ghurd · « **Reply #61 on:** November 09, 2005, 07:11:15 AM »

Ford and E85 were in the news a couple days ago. Ford is backing a lot of stations, like thousands, to supply E85.

I had a good link, but it's now dead.

This is funny. From Woody Harrelson's voiceyourself dotcom, who spoke about E85 on Leno the other night.

"In July, Corn Cob Bob, an ethanol industry mascot, was banished from Canada Day celebrations in Ottawa. Shell, a sponsor of the festivities, had expressed discomfort at the mascot's participation."

G-

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Author Topic: "Homebrewed" E85 Alcohol Fuel (Read 2095 times)