Author Topic: Wasted Power  (Read 770 times)

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TERRYWGIPE

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Wasted Power
« on: April 18, 2005, 09:01:04 PM »
      I live in Pittsburgh, the former steel capital of the world. Although the steel industry is all but nonexistant now, there are a few plants left arround here.

     The bar we go to on Saturday nights, is located right accrost from one existing plant(located on the ohio river on Nevel island), this plant is right next to the water pumpinr station. Last saturday we were out. I went outside on the deck to just watch the water and I noticed that they were burning off exess gasses in one of the stacks.

     Flames were shooting up at least 30 or 40 feet from the top of the stack. at the water co. there is a huge water ball-shaprd water tower. then it hit me, Why don't they place one of those above the flaming stack. Thus boiling the water, which turns to steam, and run some turbines off it? That might light up that entire island, or atleast   offset some of the plant's power needs. Why just burn without putting the power to use.


I'll call it as I see it

      Terry

« Last Edit: April 18, 2005, 09:01:04 PM by (unknown) »

Kwazai

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2005, 03:18:21 PM »
I'll go ya one better (at least I think so anyway)-- stick a small wind genny at the entrance to the bottom of the stack.....
« Last Edit: April 18, 2005, 03:18:21 PM by Kwazai »

TERRYWGIPE

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2005, 06:38:39 PM »
Yeh the deaft will spin the genny now we got to get he steel co. on board

      Terry
« Last Edit: April 18, 2005, 06:38:39 PM by TERRYWGIPE »

healerenergy

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2005, 08:31:48 PM »
I totaly agree with wasting power our water treatment plant burns off 12.5 million cubic of 600 btu methane per year. We also have a company that burns off more methane than that. It is tothly discusting. I have been trying to do something about it but nothing has happened for the better yet. Some people just refuse to listen to possibilities.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2005, 08:31:48 PM by healerenergy »

doceanboy

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2005, 08:51:29 PM »
I totaly agree with wasting power


lol sounds like my wife...... sorry couldn't resist

« Last Edit: April 18, 2005, 08:51:29 PM by doceanboy »

Kwazai

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2005, 06:20:39 AM »
with 'big' steel on the downside (mini-mills and specialty mills..) I would wonder how expensive the 'abandoned' property would be. I have thought on more than one occasion what it would be like to own a powerplant that was a converted grain storage facility-haven't ever seen any come up foreclosure or abandoned for sale though. You would need a hundred foot or so of several towers to get into the money side of it.

Mike
« Last Edit: April 19, 2005, 06:20:39 AM by Kwazai »

ghurd

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2005, 10:17:29 AM »
Around Youngstown, waste is the standard operating procedure at the mills.

It is hard for me to feel sorry for them anymore.


Some Japanese companies poured millions, maybe billions into the mills.

Many of the labor force resented overseas ownership, and just screwed around instead of working.  So the companies pulled out and the mills shutdown.


My uncle worked at a big one for his whole life. Midnights. 7 days a week.

He did not sleep at home. Where did he sleep?


A friend's father worked for years to figure out and refine a system to use coke gas for electric generation. It worked- lowered the bill by like $10,000 a month.

He worked at home on it, so he should have just patented it himself. They did.

He got a $25 bonus for incentive.


In all fairness some of the smaller mills really bust their butts to get something done. Maybe that is why they are still in bussiness?


G-

« Last Edit: April 19, 2005, 10:17:29 AM by ghurd »
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nothing to lose

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2005, 10:27:17 AM »
That has been a big gripe of mine also, even 30 years ago when I was a kid and we did not have to worry about all the enviroment stuff!


Why waste all the feul?? Look around, Charcoal plants, steel, water, oil wells, landfills, etc.. all burning gas and wasting all the heat!


Either pipe it to something and use the gas, or mount something at the flames at the stack.


A charcoal plant is the most stupid thing of all! How do you make charcaol? By baking the impurities out of the wood! What is an impurity? METHANE!!

So simple it's almost stupid as the plants themselfs! Pipe the Methane into a tank, use the methane to bake the wood, sell the charcoal, use the methane to make the next batch of charcoal. Heck once you get the wood producing the methane you can just pipe the gas right back into the oven and the wood bakes itself that way, you only have to get it started. So basically you once you make the first batch of charcoal you don't need any feul for any future batches, you use the feul from the last batch! I have basically done this myself on a small scale, it works!


And you can even use the heat this way several times over if you do it right. The charcoal does not need the heat at all, so you have heat leaving as hot gases (the methane) that could be used to heat water, you have the exhaust from the oven created by the burned fuel, heats water to steam, run a gennie with it. Now you have no power needs for the entire plant except feul for trucks/forklifts which may not be electric powerd.


But instead I drive by at night and see that big ball of flames in the sky!


No more than they run the oil wells in parts of this country they could use a small steam engine to charge batteries and run the wells from electric motors instead of feul. Or they could simply store the methane in tanks at the wells then run the engines for the pumps on methane. Pretty sure some of the old pumpers I was around were either gas or deisel powered. Pipe of burning methane right next to them too.


I think the problem is they are blinded by green. They can't see money unless it is handed to them. They don't understand really that saving $1,000 is the same as making $1,000, it's not green, it never crosses their hand, they don't see it, it's not there. But it is!!


I know alot of people that are that way. They work for $7 an hour, then spend $14 for something they could have done themselfs in 5 minutes and think it's a good deal. They see the green, $14 is a good deal because because the other place wanted $21, they saved $7 of greens, they see this because it's handing out the green stuff at the time the work is done. But they could have done it for $7 in 5 minutes, but that $7 savings they can't see because there is no green involved in doing something yourself.


People are color blind, if not green like money they can't see it!


This goes for about everything too. I know a guy that's kinda an outdoor health nut. I mean he loves the outdoors, goes to a spa to work out, takes long walks, rides bikes, jogs, plants a garden, etc..  He thinks it's a good deal he only pays a lawn service $15 to mow his yard for him because the kid down the block wanted $20. And the guy has little money always broke. Why doesn't he mow his own lawn?  At $15 that 30 minute job equals out to $30 an hour, he only makes $7 an hour working, and he basically does everything for fun or health that would be involved in mowing a yard. He even has a nice mower in the garage, not used for anything. Would cost him maybe $1 for gas to mow the yard, maybe $2.

 Not that I care, it just does not make any sense to me!

By the time he pays taxes and all the other stuff to work at $7 an hour, he probably has to work at least 5 hours to bring home the $30 cash he pays to have his yard mowed 2 times, which takes 1 hour to do it twice, 30 minutes each time.

 Then he wonders why I don't pay to have mine done too. Huh, can't afford it at those prices!

« Last Edit: April 19, 2005, 10:27:17 AM by nothing to lose »

electrondady1

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2005, 11:19:03 AM »
i can't help thinking it's a fundamental flaw in the nature of corporations. shurly if  a business of was owned by an individual common sense would prevale.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2005, 11:19:03 AM by electrondady1 »

healerenergy

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2005, 05:52:32 PM »
The company I work for has the good old boys mentality and it sucks. No real good management at all.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2005, 05:52:32 PM by healerenergy »

electrondady1

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2005, 08:19:22 PM »
when i lived in the city i did industrial design. my boss asked me to look around the plant and see if i could save money.the big air combressors  were water cooled . they just ran a 2" pipe through the water jackets and out into the drains. how much drinking water is that after ten years.  and all the btu's the compressors gave off went into the sewer system .  in winter they could have helped the heat bill. when i made a report at the meeting the plant manager wanted to kill me . i had crossed his turf . managment didn't do a thing. eventualy that company went under.guess the water got shut off eventualy.  
« Last Edit: April 19, 2005, 08:19:22 PM by electrondady1 »

healerenergy

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2005, 10:45:48 PM »
We have a similar situation with melting furnaces with water cooled hoods. There are three furnaces that get over 3000 degrees to melt steel so there is a lot of wasted heat in winter.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2005, 10:45:48 PM by healerenergy »

TERRYWGIPE

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2005, 07:31:37 AM »
Well, I see that my rant got everyone's smoke stacks up in flames. Now I hope that someone from the steel industry gets wind of this, before the american dream is "MADE IN JAPAN". If Mellon or Carnegie would have seen these posts, maybe something would have been done.


   Wast not Want not

        Terry

« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 07:31:37 AM by TERRYWGIPE »

ghurd

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2005, 08:25:22 AM »
"Made in CHINA"
« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 08:25:22 AM by ghurd »
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rotornuts

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2005, 09:03:26 AM »
I just moved to Edmonton Alberta from rural BC where there was a wopping 17 000 people crammed in a 100 000 hectare valley and of the bat I can see a good way to save some energy. TURN THOSE FREAKIN' STREET LIGHTS OFF!!!! All we're doing is lighting up everyones yard so the thieve's can see.... At least maybe between 12:00 am and 4:00 am?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 09:03:26 AM by rotornuts »

finnsawyer

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2005, 09:28:10 AM »
At least they should go to full cut-off lighting.  It saves money and allows one to see into the shadows better.  I live in the country and like it dark.  When I come home at night I can see my shadow on my door from my neighbors yard light across the forty.  Definitely not necessary.  One bright light that has shown across my field for years was shut off after the property was sold.  Hurray for stingy people.  I'm still left with the first mentioned nuisance yard light and another from my near neighbors.


By the way, one gas station switched to full cut-off lighting as a test and their night business increased.  Something to think about.

« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 09:28:10 AM by finnsawyer »

Kwazai

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2005, 10:20:36 AM »
ya know... money would make fine toilet paper- washable, gets softer with age.. unfortunately the ink never dries...


L8r

Mike

« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 10:20:36 AM by Kwazai »

ghurd

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2005, 01:03:43 PM »
Maybe leave on every third light?*


They just put in a few hundred more at a couple big interchanges here.

It is harder to see now than it was. More so in the rain.

Good place for 24/7 solar panels?


* money must be changing hands. They are not going to shut them ALL off.


G-

« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 01:03:43 PM by ghurd »
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TERRYWGIPE

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2005, 04:13:46 PM »
I have one in frount of my bedroom window, thinking of ripping it down & putting up a gen in it's place.

Terry
« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 04:13:46 PM by TERRYWGIPE »

Kwazai

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2005, 06:14:41 AM »
I have been looking at solar chimneys, but if the methane were free it would make a lot more sense as a heat source for one than solar. just my .02$- like a windgenny chimney......

L8r

Mike
« Last Edit: April 21, 2005, 06:14:41 AM by Kwazai »

pyrocasto

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2005, 05:39:52 PM »
Full cut off lighting? Explain a little here please.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2005, 05:39:52 PM by pyrocasto »

finnsawyer

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2005, 09:06:56 AM »
Pretty simple really.  Instead of allowing the light to flow off in all directions, a shield is put around it to confine the beam to a prescribed conical region.  An observer is not blinded when looking toward the light and so can see more easily into the shadows.  Also, the light does not shine on neighboring property.  You might check out the "Dark Sky Initiative" for more details.  Check out the Sky and Telescope website for details.  Personally, I'm all for it.  I don't need a neighbor's night light shinning in my eyes or a spot light blinding me at the intersection of the North Superior and Houghton Canal roads as happens currently.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2005, 09:06:56 AM by finnsawyer »

ghurd

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2005, 09:10:20 AM »
I think he means a light, where all the light goes where you want it.


They are set up so you can't really see the bulb or reflector from a distance.


The idea is that all the light you make goes where it should, so they can use less power.


And looking into the lighted area, there is now no big halogen bulb glaring back at you, so you can actually see beter.

Stops the blinding effect.


And it keeps from lighting up the sky with wasted energy, like most light fixtures do.


I have seen a few of them.  It works nice.  The light is more 'pleasing' too. Almost like indirect lighting.


The fixture themselves I have seen are quite ugly, usually just a square (reflector) box with a glass bottom.


G-

« Last Edit: April 22, 2005, 09:10:20 AM by ghurd »
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pyrocasto

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2005, 09:11:58 AM »
So basically your average LED. That's nice to hear.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2005, 09:11:58 AM by pyrocasto »

rotornuts

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2005, 09:30:39 AM »
I've read that the effect your describing is possible just by shaping the lens of the light the right way. I also read that "stray" light is introduced intentionally when lenses are designed. It seems people at one time didn't like a defined spot of light.


I say shut em down from 12:00 am to 4:00 am and introduce the more directed lenses as finsawyer has suggested. I can see Edmonton from 100 KM away at night just by looking up to see the light glowing in the sky. Tell me that's a good idea.

« Last Edit: April 22, 2005, 09:30:39 AM by rotornuts »

finnsawyer

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2005, 10:08:25 AM »
Not quite that.  A large enough LED could also have undesirable side effects.  we're talking pretty strong lights here.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2005, 10:08:25 AM by finnsawyer »

pyrocasto

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2005, 11:57:03 AM »
I just meant in the way that LEDs are directional. Most are 20 degrees, when a normal lightbulb is so much more.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2005, 11:57:03 AM by pyrocasto »

nothing to lose

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2005, 08:03:27 PM »
Yes and unlike solar the free methane would be 24/7 regaurdless of the weather too.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2005, 08:03:27 PM by nothing to lose »

nothing to lose

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2005, 08:07:57 PM »
 "ya know... money would make fine toilet paper- washable, gets softer with age.. unfortunately the ink never dries..."


Not sure I totally understand that, but anyway washable and softer with age would not apply since it would be a one use and throw it away like everything else, even if it is money.

« Last Edit: April 22, 2005, 08:07:57 PM by nothing to lose »

finnsawyer

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2005, 08:56:02 AM »
I see.  It does look like most of our household lighting will eventually be LED based.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2005, 08:56:02 AM by finnsawyer »

finnsawyer

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2005, 10:00:45 AM »
Not necessarily.  I understand Howard Hughes once spent a lot of time and money trying to develop a steam powered car.  Also, don't forget the "Spruce Goose" which he pursued past any hope of a payback.  The good thing in these situations is that it was his own money, not someone else's.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2005, 10:00:45 AM by finnsawyer »

Kwazai

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2005, 06:45:10 AM »
it was intended to be a crass comment in regards to the 'real' value of money- only in that its the stuff that money buys that has the value-not the money itself.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2005, 06:45:10 AM by Kwazai »

finnsawyer

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Re: Wasted Power
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2005, 09:12:39 AM »
So, the government should just pay it's bills by printing currency!  Currently 2/3 of U. S. currency is held by foreigners and they're coming to buy the country!  Oh yeah, money can be laundered and used again.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2005, 09:12:39 AM by finnsawyer »