A case against hydrogen

[Tom in NH]

I've only made a simple hydrogen generator and watched it burn gas like a blowtorch. What do I know? Still this article raises a few valid points. Just thought you'd find it of interest. --Tom

http://www.culturechange.org/alt_energy.htm

[Vernon]

Alice is right.

There really is no substitute for oil and natural gas so we better conserve what we have, the switch to anything else will requre a much less consumptive lifestyle. A start, I think, would be home cogeneration. There is nothing high tech about that, an IC engine runs on natural gas, generates electricity and provides heat and hot water using cooling water and exhaust waste heat. Compared to the 30% efficiency of a central steam plant and transmission system, home cogen can do 80 - 85%. That saves a lot of natural gas. Such a system can be supplemented by wind, solar and battery storage so it only needs to run when the heat is required.

Central generation wastes an enormous amount of energy every day boiling water, providing the BTU's for that change of state and then wasting that heat condensing the water before pumping it back into that boiler. That has a huge impact on CO2 emissions and natural gas consumption. You also have all those linemen, meter readers, substation maintenance and other personel driving around in large trucks .. who knows how many BTU's they consume.  Before considering pie in the sky concepts that lose energy we need to stop wasting what we have.

[RobC]

Check this out. RobC http://www.unitednuclear.com/h2.htm

[electrondady1]

if you think the future is going to look anything like the present your in for a surprise!i don't know from which direction the artical is coming from . battery manufactures perhapse. they did not say anything about hydrogen that every one does'nt already know. the fundamental difference  in the way the next economy will work is the massive decentralization of powerproduction , population densities. the direction of money flow and the  reduction in strengh of corporations.trying to apply the petrochemical yardstick (which for the last two hundred years has shaped our civilization) to a era when  our fuel stock is water and the wind and sun turn it into fuel for us for free. is inappropriate and lacks vision. the "hydrogen hype" you mentioned is unfamiliar to me . there is an increasing awareness .  

[Phil Timmons]

Well, at the start, the article makes (or repeats others') gross assumptions regarding the cost and availablity of electricity for creation of the hydrogen.  I am looking at sitting on the opposite end of the stated situation -- namely, how to use and sell off the surplus electricity.  

Since my electricity will running surplus, and our power company seems to be total $%@#!! about buying back our surplus power, and there is no point in storing it in batteries, or any other method, as we will be surplus for any billing period, we are faced with giving it away to the util, or creating a "backyard grid," to sell to neighbors -- or doing stuff like making hydrogen.

The author seems correct that hydrogen may a bit goofy to use as a general purpose automobile motor fuel.  But then again, so is gasoline.  Personally I am way biased towards "grid-enabling" the public roads so that cars and trucks can just get electric power directly from the road surface, and let us get away from combustion engines.  But everyone has to have their daydreams, eh?

Hydrogen does seem useful for industrial applications where it is not (yet?) heavily used.  One that comes to mind is the Brown Gas stuff -- H2 + 02 welding rigs.

[electrondady1]

so thats how the nucelear people do things! the tanks arn't even bolted in, looks like the hoses are just tucked in under the seats.

[healerenergy]

I saw a show on tv about alternative fuels and there was a man who developed a solid storage for hydrogen in a container. That won't release the hydrogen if ruptured and I was on submarines in the navy for many years. We had O2 gens which seperated O2 and hydrogen. The hydrogen was dumped overboard. It was lovingly called the bomb but we never ever had a problem neither did any other boat in the navy so if we adhear to safety protocal we should never have a problem using left over electricity  to crack hydrogen. Hydrogen is a renewable fuel that I want to be able to use.

[Vernon]

Where do you suppose all the "surplus" electricity is going to come from ? It will take an area of solar cells covering several states to produce the electricity we now use. I don't think that many people understand the scale of consumption, the quadrillions of BTU's that are wasted. If you have a half acre in a windy and sunny area you can produce two or three times what you need at your residence .. but no where near enough to maintain your share of industrial production and keep the economy going. It is nice to back way down on residential consumption and stave off the inevitable .. but a crunch is still inevitable.

[nanotech]

Phil, I'm with you here.

I'm beginning to change my mind as to how to disconnect from the grid a bit here.

I've got 10 acres of wild timber in northern Minnesota.  To say I've got excess room for a wind farm is an understatement.

If I put up a bunch of wind genny's and was able to get a big enough battery pack to survive a 3 day calm period (few and far between, but they do happen), any excess would go into creating hydrogen.

My plan is to either make a hydrogen fired steam boiler to run a steam engine as a backup generator or a modified internal combustion engine generator, or pipe the hydrogen to a modified natural gas furnace.  Or both.

The hardest part is swallowing the expense of the metal hydride storage canisters.  With the wide range of temperatures around here (-40oF in the winter, up to 110oF in the summer) any form of submersion storage is out.

I'm also planning an electric conversion on a car, with my home brewed power system as the charger.

Between the two, there goes up to and including $600 a month outlay!!  ($500 a month for the electric heating in my house during winter, and $100 a month in gasoline on the old clunker truck)

[Vernon]

To develop this concept a little further ....

The per capita annual energy consumption in the US is 350 million BTU's per person.

that is 958,904 per day.

39. ,954 BTU's per hour for each person !!
    
3413. BTU's equals 1 KWH and that means 11.7 KWH per hour. In order for you to have surplus electricity sufficent (not considering losses !) to make H2 or whatever carrier that will grow and transport your food, bring your windmill parts and otherwise support your part of the economy, you need to be generating 12KW 24/7. If you have a wife/husband make it 24 .. one kid ? 36KW.
      
      

It is obvious that we are talking a lot of per capita solar cells and permanent magnet trailer wheel alternators to get us where we need to be. The energy and capital just to make all that stuff is formidable.

[Phil Timmons]

In our personal case, our surplus is the apparant outcome of building some very simple and cheap solar boiler rigs.  Looking at around 2000 ft sq. effective surface area (read one single roof of one single residence or small commercial building) to produce 2 to 3 times the use of that building.

Looked at solar cells, and use them for some remote applications, but I cannot see any legit cost recovery in cells for serious general purpose use.  

But in the overall "macro" picture, you are correct that most electricity is just peed away.  In the real world, I am EE who does some heavy industrial applications.  For example, we had this one industrial customer last year.  We put in a WHOLE bunch of very power hungry equipment for them.  Their monthly electricity bill at that site alone is around $200,000.  But their entire product line is designed to be used once only and thrown away.  All lost.  

If there is a crunch, no real loss, because it would only (finally) stop us from doing that kind of stupid stuff.  Gee, such a problem.

[Vernon]

Some people might be able to produce their 12KW around the clock. Assuming a 20% factor (it gets dark at night, cloudy days occur) a 60KW solar steam installation will do the job.

The real problem is the coupling of energy and the economy. The installation you did represents economic growth. Growth is essential to the very survival of the current debt laden economic system. The capital for growth is derived from IPO's, small business loans and other debt. The government borrows huge amounts of money that it dumps into the economy each year and that helps fuel growth. More energy is necessary for each increment of this expansion. Wal Mart sends lots of jobs to China each year making it possible for ever greater numbers of Chinese to enjoy electricity and IC transportation. They too want to join the ranks of Twelve Kilowatt Man. That incremental energy is becoming a problem, peak oil is approaching and even if it is not here yet, it is impossible to suck all that oil out of the planet fast enough. Without oil, actually with an escalting price for oil, the economy tips into recession, it can't grow. When that happens on a long term basis Big Government and Big Corporation can't pay debt. The system collapses. If the economy tanks you don't get those industrial jobs and that paycheck, if your main steam valve blows it's packing ... you don't have the money to replace it.

Modern capitalism is a tool for growth that even in the presense of unlimited raw materials requires a Greenspanesqe tinkering with monetary policy and all sorts of political life support to stay in the black. A little speculation here, interest rates too high for a couple of months there .... can tilt it into recession. One can see that an energy crunch will start producing business failures, investor confidence drops, higher interest is required on the loans that keep things afloat and more businesses fail. Expensive money and scarce energy effectively close the feeding tube of a system that is already on life support. Depression is next.

[electrondady1]

here is a thought, it takes fourteen volts to charge a battery but electrolisis seems to works at any voltage.perhapse precutin power could  be shunted to hydrogen cells.when power output reaches 14 volts you charge batteries, when the batteries are charged , shunt the power back to the hydrogen cells. one thing ive noticed in my experiments , the gas bubbles continue to form  for a little while even after the current is interupted.also, there is a delay between the time the current is applied and the creation of gass. i'm thinking the level of ions in the electrolite must build up/discharge .like a battery or capacitor.

[electrondady1]

vernon , these are vey good points your making, this i think is the fundamental flaw in our system , it is based entirely on growth like a cancer.  if an industry sells / produces the same volume as it did  the previos  year it is considered a disaster.

[finnsawyer]

I'm becoming more convinced than ever that the answer is better batteries, namely a rechargeable aluminum battery, and long term space based solar power generation.  The two combined would solve many of the current "perceived" problems.  Money should be spent on those areas, not trying to develop a hydrogen economy.  The space based power generation could be developed to aid in a mission to mars via ion propulsion.

[jomoco]

While the article does a fair job of pointing out a few difficulties in developing a hydrogen based fuel source, it totally ignores a few salient facts, principally that there is enough wind power in the continental U.S. to meet all our energy needs. Solar power is given short shrift. Ocean power is totally ignored. All three of these power sources can be utilized to produce hydrogen with very little toxic consequence. The article seems to be saying that oil is good for us, and anything else is foolishly inefficient. No big surprize there.

It's obvious that renewable energies are a threat to corporate control of the energy market. Sun, wind and ocean power are free sources of energy that can be accessed by individual citizens, and therefore constitute a threat to these greedy clowns.

Electricity derived from renewable sources is the obvious choice for our future needs. Electrical grid highways are the optimal choice for our transportation needs in high density areas, hydrogen powered automobiles in low density areas. The answers to our energy needs are self evident. The political leadership to pursue their developement is what's sorely absent. History will reveal these clowns for what they are, shortsighted manipulative and greedy little men that impeded our march into the future for a short time at most. Science and common sense will trample them into the dust where they belong.

jomoco

[electrondady1]

well , eventually. we can just take a run out to titan and suck up some of the oceans of methane , but unless someone can make a buck out of it , like, right now , what are the chances of any long term investments takeing place. big business is only interested in quick returns on there investment and governments are just pimps for big business.(am i bitter?) i just don't want my son to have to make his way through some postapocaliptic dark ages  because the system is myopic.  

[electrondady1]

jomoco, RIGHT ON !! hey, the jahova witness people droped by to try to do there thing yesterday. i could'nt chat but they were kind enough to leave some reading material. get this,  the first ten pages were about renewable energy. never thought i'd see that.

[jomoco]

I guess even Jahova has a pragmatic side, and accepts that change is needed. I never understood why they shaved their heads and exposed themselves to ultraviolet radiation, but hey if it changed their thinking for the better, maybe we should send clippers and razors to all our sell out representatives in Washington DC!

jomoco

[electrondady1]

governments all around the world are under leverage from one direction or another depending on there resourses.   corporations get there way. i don't see them as evil, just out of control life forms

[healerenergy]

jomoco

I believe you are thinking about the hari krishna. They shave their heads. Jehova Witness don't shave their heads.

electron

could you send the Jehova my way I enjoy trying to enlighten them on different things.

I don't think we are going to have a hydrogen based system. What we need is a multi based system.

[Arno]

please make a run for president! you have my vote cause I like you thinking

arno

[jomoco]

Thanks for setting me straight Healer, I meant no disrespect to either, and welcome their participation in promoting clean renewable energy as the optimum choice for a better future for us all.

As a George Harrison collector I should have known the difference between the two. I guess I find things religious still somewhat confusing and mystifying, kinda like politicians.

jomoco

[electrondady1]

a multi based system sounds user friendly and hopefull. much better than raveinus hourds escapeing the city to scourre the country side  for food.  all we have to do to lower the price of oil products is cut our consumpion  back.  

[Vernon]

What about the energy and other resources needed to build those million windmills and the web of transmisson lines needed to connect them ? I think they should be building windmills but H2 takes 1.3KWH of electricity to get 1KWH worth of H2. You lose more when you compress it for storage in a cylinder in a car. The IC engine then rejects 65% of that in the radiator and exhaust pipe. Wind might cost 20 cents a KWH at the generator considering the time it takes the machine to pay for itself and the cost of capital. The losses might take that to 75 cents a KWH in terms of automotive rear wheel horsepower, perhaps 60 cents a HP/Hour. A reasonable figure for driving 60MPH is 15 HP so you are looking at 9 or 10 bucks to go 60 miles. Gas has to get to $4 or $5 to make it worth the switch. It would be better to develop a battery pack that would get you 100 miles down the road and lease "battery service". You drive 100 miles, stop in a battery station and a robot, in seconds, pops out your discharged pack, puts in a new one and debits your account. No waiting for recharge and a lot more efficient use of that windmill energy. You need less than half the windmills that an H2 internal combustion setup would require. Add a 10 HP diesel to the car to give it self recharge flexibility and 200MPG fossil capability.