Builders Waste $1,000's each year

[nothing to lose]

 I thought of this while e-mailing a friend.

I know not every-one here has actually thought of this so I shall post it!

If you run any kind of job site needing power tools and run a gas or diesel genny like most do, then you are throwing thousands of dollars a year away!!!

I know most of us here thought of this already probably, but I also know a couple people who have not. Very smart people, but still running a "generator only" on a job site.

With the only power being a generator you have 2 choices.

 First choice, Run it all day and waste all that fuel when tools are not being used. Setting up the work takes alot of time often, if the generator is running then you are burning fuel for no reason since tools are not being used. Also your generator itself will not last as long running 8-10 hours every day, and more maintainance like oil changes will be needed.

Second choice, Pay an employee big bucks to walk out to the generator and start it, walk back, when done with tools walk back out again and shut off the genny. If the generator is only needed 12 times durring the day and it takes the employee 5 minutes walking around to start it and shut it off, you just lost 1 hours pay you paided him for basically no work! Also all the other money you have to pay out extra, SS, benifits, workers comp, on that hours pay etc.. ect.. At $10 an hour on a 5 day week then you lost WAY over $50 by paying for no work being done! Also wasted fuel while he walks to and from, wear and tear on genny etc... still.

Now the OTHER choice. Always have power on, seldom or never run the Genny!

 Almost every contractor I know either has a certain truck or a trailer that is always at the job site! Install Batteries and large inverter on it!

Basically simple as that.

 Most contractors park at a building that has grid power. Charge batteries at night off the grid, far far cheaper than fuel and no genny wear and tear. At job site turn on the inverter once in the morning and plug in the cords and forget it till end of day or if batteries get low. Ok, saws, grinders, drills, and many other smaller medium tools are what are used most, no problem.  So now you have no fuel used and anytime the employee needs a drill, saw, grinder, it is right there ready to use no walking around costing you money for nothing playing with a genny.

 Ok, say you use the tools alot and batteries are getting low around noon some days, no problem, remember that genny that USED to waste all that fuel and money for you? You still have it right? Got batteries getting low, fire up the genny. Now it is NOT idling costing fuel for nothing, it has a reason to run. Plug cords to it and also a charger, it now powers the tools when needed for a short time and always charging the batteries, it's never burning fuel for no reason when it runs. When batteries are charged up, switch back to the inverter. If that happens enough to worry about, buy more batteries.

 Most construction jobs sites like building houses or similar work actually use very little power if you really think about it. How long does a saw run for cutting a few 2x4's or plywood or siding, a drill? How much power does an electric nailer use?

How long does the big generator run, or how many times is it started?

How much power is actaully needed depends on the work being done and tools used. Most small contractors and builders do not use that much power durring a day, but when they need it they need it. Large inverter and batteries will supply that power fine.

 What about large tools like big pumps or electric welder? Well when those are needed then use the genny if you need too. An Aircompressor is questionable, My 60gal runs fine on my 5kw inverter, just need enough batteries to power it as needed.

 Air nailers and such only care if there is air power, not where it comes from. Actaully an electric air compressor is better on a job site than a gas one for several reasons.

 One a gas compressor has to run and burn fuel all the time, electric compressor only runs when air is getting low. Gas compressor uses fuel all day while you nail a bit, and all you get is air. Electric compressor only runs when needed, if ran from an inverter or generator you also have power for other tools at the same time. If powered from a generator, you only have one engine that needs maintained.

 If a wind genny could also be installed at the nightly tool storage location it could be used along with a grid powered charger. Any power provided by the wind genny after work durring nightly storage is power not used from the grid, the grid powered charger would make sure that by morning the batteries are full charged ready for work even in low wind nights.

 If the storage area were also partly wind powered, durring the day when working the storage area is not in use anyway, swap the windgenny over to batteries to charge there durring the day for night use.

 I know a couple people that might get use from this post if they think about. I think they are visiting the site at times. I know one person is

 I have figured it up slightly, this one persons payback on a $2,000 investment of batteries and inverter would pay for itself in about 10 months or less when you consider his employee expenses of walking around to control the gas genny use, on off all day. That does not count anything for the money saved on fuel or anything else, just employee labour costs!!! And the power tools are not large power hogs or run for long periods of time, just used often for short periods. The expenses are very large for a genny, the power usage very low.

Think about it if you are in this type of business where you run generators and power tools!

[ElSenator]

Well thought out! I walk by construction sites every day, and wonder about the same things. AND it might be a nice write-off, also.

[nothing to lose]

Thanks,

 Post was getting long so I left out alot of other things to be thought about for savings. Mostly concentrating on expenses for generator and employee labor. A business pays out far more than the hourly wage, like half the employees socail security is paid by the company and only half by the employee, then un-employment insurance if it applies, and lots of other things. Maybe the employee gets paid $10 an hour, the business may actually be paying near $13-$15 an hour total for everything? It can vary alot by business and how things are set up etc..

Any business person should logically look at all ways to save money and be more profitable without actaully cutting corners or lowering quality. Also keep the employees happy! That seems to be something many businesses forget!

 A happy employee that cares about his job and quality of work is worth 2x as much (or more) as some guy that hates the job and just wants a check, that guy often cares nothing about the shody work he does as long as he gets paid for it.

Your right, the purchase of the inverter and batteries are a business expense and tax deductible. That could really help reduce the payback time also.

 If you can work in RE credits that also is great, it could maybe even PAY besides saving.

 In business use like this, you can't afford to have equipment breaking down and causing long delays. The generator is always there for a backup if needed, but what happens if you depend on only and it breaks?

 Mostly though what I am gettng at on this part is you don't want to take a chance on the batteries failing you, right? Write them off for 3 years as a business expense if you can and then replace with new ones. But gee what do you do with these nice 3 year old ones?

 They been paid for, so free for home RE use maybe

 But that's not what I was really intending here of course, but something to also think about if it applies.

[alcul8r]

NTL,

I had a power trailer that I took to a couple of energy fairs.  1K of solar will fit easily on a small trailer, 4 big batteries and inverter.  Plenty of room left over.  That's what we will be using to build our house, which will also be off the grid.

Your idea is even more applicable to motor homes, unless they want to run the A/C.  Park facing west and the solar foldout is your awning.

Rex

[richhagen]

NTL, These guys had the same idea:

http://www.ips-solar.com/trailer.htm

This one is not bad, with two sw inverters, it can power almost anything on a construction site.  Now all you need is an air compressor and a large air tank.  It could also use some more solar and a removable mast for a wind generator.  I would still have a small fossil fuel generator as a backup for battery charging as well.  I think the Unisolar panels on that one are not a bad choice for that type of application. Despite the fact that in direct sun they make less power per square meter than other panels available, they are less prone to breakage.  

These guys make a tiny version of a power trailer:

http://www.floatograph.com/powertrailer/

Of course I would make it a little bigger than the tiny one, and I wouldn't use an air 403 for the generator.  I'd probably use a covered trailer, roof, like the larger unit above and cover it with solar, with a removable mast for a small genny.  Then I'd have a vented compartment for the batteries, and a suitable compartment for the inverters and a large compressor inside.  For more power, You could have additional panels that would mount off of the sides like a car port.  You would still need a small genny, but it could be small as it would not provide peak loading.  

Newer emergency higway markers (the flashing arrow signs) have solar power, and a generator that kicks on and off when the batteries are low.  That way they use less fuel and don't have to be refueled as often.  Of course they also use LED's for the yellow light.  

I think you are right in that the economics are advantageous for remote locations where grid power does not exist, and a generator would normally be used, to at least supplement the generator with batteries and solar.  I still think of those cattle watering cisterns with diesel generators sitting next to them thinking what a waste with the wind and solar power available at those locations.  Rich

[ghurd]

""I would still have a small fossil fuel generator as a backup for battery charging""

And it could be a simple lawn mower engine and automotive style alternator.

Some places (stationary off-grid) get my goat running a diesel compressor all day, every day. For years!

If they would have a 3x, 4x, 5x bigger tank, it would sure save a lot of money. Not just fuel, but maintainence costs, down time, etc.  

Honestly, it would mean going from a couple thousand gallons of air to gallons.  But tanks are not that expensive.

Another thing that gets me is the compressor running, the pop-off 'popping-off',

and a generator running to charge batteries!

Who thought that was a good idea?

Don't even get me started on hydraulics!  Ever see a 80hp diesel run to power a table top scroll saw?  I have.

   end rant

I'm considering hijacking a piece of the wife's website to post 'Idiot' pics.

Hmmm.  'what not to do unless you are an idiot dot com'?

Doesn't seem fair using bandwidth and space to show that kind of thing here.

G-

[nothing to lose]

Ya kinda what I was getting at somewhat. Other than trade shows or some large dealers for fleamarkets and such I hadn't seen many power trailers myself. I saw a used one for sale last year when I visited Pickster, we stopped at some place that was flying a windmill and had kinda an RE sign up, I wanted to check out the place. Wasn't really much though. My motor conversions are better than they were selling retail or trying to, Jerry's garbogen would have blown them away. Pickster had a nice daul rotor mill flying though.

 Kinda what I wanted to do with this post was bring to peoples attention the savings of using batteries and inverters instead of just a fossil fuel generator. Even at the highest rates I ever seen for grid power, and the losses one might expect with batteries, charging discharge losses, inverters, etc.. the savings is so great with such a system anyone that can use it should. At $2.50 here a gallon for gas and higher for diesel, then figure in the employee pay etc.. as I mentioned (employee pay is the largest chunk) some contractors and business owners could save so much money it's unreal almost. I know several, but one for instance only uses like one small power tool

 like a saw maybe 2 times an hour each time 5 minutes, for total of 10 minutes per hour. The generator is a large one because sometimes he has to power a large item, but rarely. How much does he pay the employee to start a generator and shut it back off maybe 16-20 times a day. For him it would pay to just grid charge at night about a 500-800amp battery bank and use it durring the day. That is probably even far more power than he would ever use anyway, then only run the gas generator when it is rarely needed for the large items. He would still have the generator if ever needed for a backup.

10. minutes an hour for a saw, or a hand grinder, or a drill, over a 10 hour day, thats 1 hour 40 minutes of actual use. So how many amps does it take to run the inverter 10 hours no load and a tool 1 hour and 40 minutes? See what I mean. But they pay an employee at $10hr (plus extras) 10 minutes and hour for nothing but generator controll.
    
1. 3/4 hours at $10hr, $17.50 a day to run a generator (actualy far far more). So even if charged on the grid power at night, would it cost $17.50 per day?
   
   

Of course RE would be far better than the grid, but grid is fast and cheap for anyone. Easy to get started saving, then use the savings for RE equipment to eliminate the grid useage.

Solar is good, but that is getting into alot of money for investment in equipment some small companies don't have to spare. But if they can get the basics, batteries, inverter, grid powered charger, then they can save tons of money for other stuff to add to it. Most contractors get paid by the job but pay employees by the hour. So if a job takes 2 days less time to complete, that's two days pay they pocket per job as profits. And they save that two days not by being slave drivers but by eliminating un-needed chores.

Another way to think of it, 1hr 40min more work per day is available, almost 2hrs a day free labor? Give the employee an extra 20 minutes of break time, he is happier and likes his job better because you care, you still saved 1hr 20min and got more work done with a happier worker

Figuring of course a 1 worker job site which many are. 4 workers, oh well forget the extra break time or go for 5 minutes instead of 20. You still save money.

[zap]

You've presented your case well but I think you need to do much more research before making the statement "If you run any kind of job site needing power tools and run a gas or diesel genny like most do, then you are throwing thousands of dollars a year away!!!"

If you have the spreadsheets or figures comparing identical jobs run by your method versus a generator I'd love to pour over them.

"First Choice"

So lets say you have the generator run all day; how much fuel have you used?. On all the jobs I've been on where a generator was the only power available I've never, ever, seen the generator running anywhere near full or at even half capacity for the entire day(see my reply below to your statement "Most construction jobs sites...). How long has it been now that generators have or can be ordered with an auto throttle? A 5k watt Honda with a 6.5 gallon tank will run about 12 hours putting out 2500 watts. At $3/gallon for fuel, 2500 watts each and every hour for 12 hours; that will cost you $19.50 in fuel. How long would the same machine run on that 6.5 gallons when you add in the times when you're using less than 2500 watts, when you're using no power and the auto throttle kicks in, or when it's shut down during lunch? Just a guess here but I'd say this generator would run maybe 2@ 8 hour days or more on idle? I used to co-own a concrete cutting and coring company where we used the 3500 watt Hondas. I think they had a 6 or 7 gallon fuel tank and could run 2 18 amp core drills and shop vacs for 10 hours of coring and slurry vacuuming at a cost of next to nothing compared to the income being made from the drills. In other words, the cost of the energy needed for the job was a very small percentage when all things were considered.

"Second Choice"

I saw my first jury-rigged remote start generator maybe 3 decades ago. Remote start is an option available on many Honda's with a separate charge of under $200 with a 25-30 foot capability or you can purchase the parts to make a longer run. I'm sorry, but I find your hypothetical solution of hiring someone to tend the generator ludicrous and doesn't help in proving your case, to me anyway, at all. If you know contractors doing this I can't imagine them making much profit. Compared to hiring even the cheapest of laborers, the purchase of a $200 remote would pay for itself in a few hours or less.

"Almost every contractor I know either has a certain truck or a trailer that is always at the job site!"

In the Midwest and in the East this may be the case but where I've worked here and along the West coast, theft and vandalism is the main reason few things are ever left on the job site. If the site is known to be safe then I'd say you solutions are sound but at the end of the day it may still be much easier to hoist a generator back into the pickup and haul it home.

"Most contractors park at a building that has grid power."

This paragraph describes a possibly good option, I know it worked fairly well for you

running that one house that wasn't on the grid. But what happens when a shipment of lumber is sent that is short of material you need right now, you or someone has cut a whole bunk of 2x4 2 inches short, or you ordered wrong and you need to head to the lumber store to get a load of whatever, and you need to load a full bed's worth of lumber. All the batteries and the inverter will need to be off loaded and then reloaded at the end of the day. Also, when all is said and done, how much extra gas and "wear and tear" has the truck seen hauling the batteries around not to mention possible "wear and tear" the batteries will see?

"Most construction jobs sites like building houses or similar work actually use very little power if you really think about it."

I agree with this. I once went from a vacant lot to first floor framing, including a 9 foot basement on a 1600 sq.foot house, using a 400 watt inverter running off my truck battery except for the fuel required to run the front end loader, concrete trucks and concrete pumper. In fact, the first time I became aware of inverters was back in the 60's when people started putting inverters in their trucks to power an occasional saw cut or other job on a site where no grid power was available. In this instance though, I could probably make a case for getting one of the small wattage Honda or Yamaha generators to run most of the power needs for building the house.

" I have figured it up slightly, this one persons payback on a $2,000 investment of

batteries and inverter would pay for itself in about 10 months or less..."

See my reply to "Second Choice" for the reason most of this paragraph seems to have little merit since most of your payback is based around hiring someone just to run the generator.

I'm not trying to shoot you down NTL. You have presented some very good ideas, as you

usually do, but from my experience your figures on the amount of money that could be saved seem off base. And after all, you still have a generator sitting around for the times that the sun doesn't shine, the wind doesn't blow, or the water doesn't flow.

I could see where your ideas might work very well in the growing "green" building sector where perceived value can warrant higher cost. A contractor following your outline just might be able to garner all the work he could handle if he set up an RE system to build "green" housing. I think most of the "greenies" I've met would flock to something like that. First day on the job site, set up a wind genny and power house, I could see that. Heck, figure things out so the customer keeps the wind genny and power system after the home is completed... even better.

[ghurd]

All things are relative. Like fuel and labor costs.

Here, you can get 500 experienced guys for $8.50 an hour in a week. Make it 3,000 if you throw in benefits.  

I know people with B. or M. degrees and families working for minimum wage washing dishes with no benifits at all. Really.

"theft and vandalism is the main reason few things are ever left on the job site".

Thats exactaly why its on trailers in the midwest!  It's taken home every single night.

Think more like 8~12' box trailer that goes home with the boss every night to sleep in his driveway.

"the cost of the energy needed for the job was a very small percentage when all things were considered"

This is what I tried to say a couple times related to battery prices.

Like if we ruin $200 worth of batteries in 15 days, it was worth it, considering our options.  We are not ruining the batteries, but it seems like we are if one considers the use at low voltages, but they keep going fine.

The risk of ruining a $200 battery every week is the best option for us.

We have not replaced the batteries since before the new system was implemented.

G-

[wdyasq]

First change I would make is using a diesel genny.  This would cut fuel costs by 1/2 or more.  Here, trailers are a good thing.  The contractor bundles up all his equipment and the whole thing gets stolen.  Insurance pays, the guy gets all new stuff and that gets stolen. The thieves now have all almost new stuff and insurance gets high enough where honest folks can't afford it.  

The local thieves know I know who they are. They also know I will take time off a job to hunt down the bastards and prosecute them. I have a record of finding the idiots also.

The fuel used by a generator is negligible compared to the options. And, it doesn't draw unemployment and doesn't require matching FICA taxes, saving you another 20% or so.

Ron

[nothing to lose]

Hi Zap,

I think some things were mis-read and maybe some thngs I may have not stated clearly.

Like you said, but I didn't

"I'm sorry, but I find your hypothetical solution of hiring someone to tend the generator ludicrous and doesn't help in proving your case, to me anyway, at all"

Now I know something was mis-read there

 Actaully I would agree with that, BUT I never said anything about hiring someone to just tend the genny. I was talking about how much you pay a worker to walk a back and forth each time it needs to be started or shut off, that is time he is not doing other work and you are still paying for that time if you are paying him by the hour, and that time adds up! That is what I was saying. Yes I know people doing exactly that also. And my figures for there site would be pretty correct too, they are not the only ones doing this, many are!

 Yes you could buy extra stuff like remote controlls, that also costs money, how many  actually use such things? I don't see many. You can start your car and unlock your doors with the press of a button as you walk out of a store, I see tons of contractors with fancy trucks and cars doing that, but they don't do it for gennies that I see in use.

Also maybe Mis-read when you said,

"I've worked here and along the West coast, theft and vandalism is the main reason few things are ever left on the job site. If the site is known to be safe then I'd say you solutions are sound but at the end of the day it may still be much easier to hoist a generator back into the pickup and haul it home."

Basically we say the same thing here. Not sure where the confusion was, maybe I typed it wrong. MOST tools and equipment are hauled on a trailer or truck to and from the job each day, we BOTH are saying that.

""Most contractors park at a building that has grid power."

This paragraph describes a possibly good option, I know it worked fairly well for you

running that one house that wasn't on the grid. But what happens when a shipment of lumber is sent that is short of material you need right now, you or someone has cut a whole bunk of 2x4 2 inches short, or you ordered wrong and you need to head to the lumber store to get a load of whatever, and you need to load a full bed's worth of lumber. All the batteries and the inverter will need to be off loaded and then reloaded at the end of the day. Also, when all is said and done, how much extra gas and "wear and tear" has the truck seen hauling the batteries around not to mention possible "wear and tear" the batteries will see?"

These I can answer real easy. First like you said, I ran a house that way, if I could run a house, then why not a jobsite

 I never suggested getting rid of the generator I think. Heck you may fry an inverter one day, then what? Or what if you need far more power for 2 days than normall for a specail job and your inverter is too small. Say you have to rush a job and have 3 extra guys working using far more tools? Generator time.

 Yes keep the generator same as always, just don't use it unless there is a reason you have to. So as you say, if the truck needs to leave for any reason, then you just off load the generator and run it as you would have anyway normally. Still no problem.

 My batteries are still working fine, I was driving alot worse dirt roads than most contractors normally do and I was doing alot more driving than to a job and back also. My batteries were ones I got from a scrap yard someone else threw away, and I still use them today. I did ruin two on a long highway trip, but I think I fried them charging while driving which I am not saying to do here at all. Or they may have just been ready to go, like I said someone else threw them away before I got them.

 Work trucks probably will never see a real difference in hauling the extra weight in fuel usage. It may be there, but I never saw it with my truck. Driving conditions make more difference than rather I have the batteries loaded or not, I actaully checked this myself. I made the same long trip with and without batteries loaded, no real seeable difference.

[nothing to lose]

"The fuel used by a generator is negligible compared to the options. And, it doesn't draw unemployment and doesn't require matching FICA taxes, saving you another 20% or so."

Batteries and inverter doesn't draw unemployment and doesn't require matching FICA taxes either.

I geuss a basic question, if generators are so good and the fuel used by a generator is negligible compared to the options, then why are we wasting our time and money trying to set up our homes on RE? Batteries and Inverters??? We are not really wasting our time though are we!

It's basically the same thing. Collect the power when available and store it for later use. Size the system to meet the needs. The only 2 big differences between this and a home RE system is this needs to be poratble to take to the job site, and I am saying use the grid for recharging at night when available and NOT saying use solar durring the day. I have NEVER seen grid power cost more than fuel anywhere ever! The saving are so great that it more than makes up for loses in the battery system.

If you can recharge with RE that's even better. But you don't have too.

[nothing to lose]

Being this forum is basically all about batteries, inverters, solar, wind, etc.. all the RE stuff, I am rather surprised at the posts suggesting a fuel powered generator is better than batteries and inverter.

I geuss a basic question, how many people with batteries and inverters just say "Well I better fire up the generator so I can run my drill today" as a common everyday thing at home?

As I mentioned I know some jobs sites very well that should be using batteries and inverter mostly and the generator as backup or the rare time a really large amount of power is needed. Let's look at one such site.

Fuel cost is over $5 per day, power usage is a few KWhr total, spread out over the day.

 Lets over geuss the amount for him and say 5kwhr, it's less though. Electric rates for grid power is alot less than $0.30KW for him.

Take 5KWx $0.30, equals $1.50 for grid power, that is far too high really because we are figuring the price and usage too high, but we'll use that anyway.

Fuel $5, or grid $1.50, $3.50 less for grid per day. Wow lets get really wild and say there is a 2kw loss involved in storing and using that 5kw of power, I think we all know thats far too much though. So $3.50- $0.60 for losses, $2.90 per day savings for this one guys site by using grid charged batteries and inverter, I figured all costs far far too high so the savings would really be alot more. Like I think KW costs are really more around $0.12 for the grid less than half what I figured. And fuel per gallon cost is rising alot fast. 5KW is about 1/3 of the power my house used to use in an entire 24 day!! No way this guy uses nearly that much power in 8 or 10 hours on a normal work day.

 Figure he works 5 days 50 weeks in work year. He actaully works alot more days often 6 and sometimes 7 days a week. But we will figure just 250 days x $2.90 a day, $725 savings per year. I have figured EVERYTHING in favor of the genny so far and against the inverter, and the inverter still wins!! If I used the true lower costs for the grid power, true losses, and true works days, and his true KW usage per day, savings would be well over $1,000 for him.

  HE runs a normal jobsite. He burns over 2gal gas a day for a generator when it runs all day.

How much does an oil change cost for the generator and how often? $0.50 or $1 for a gallon of  distilled water for batteries once a month? Does that work about even?

 How long before the generator has to be replaced or engine rebuilt and for how much?

 If we do not figure the cost of buying the generator then we should not figure the costs of the batteries and inverter either, but we will anyway.

Now I went way low on his savings estimate, lets be real high figuring cost of the batteries and inverter though. He does not need an inverter like mine but figure it anyway, 5kw and cost me $500 and is over 2 years old and withstood a very rough life so far.. 5kw of battery power is 416 amps, really far more than he needs since I went way over on his daily KW use. We want the batteries to last at least 3 years, my 115 amps have for me so far and still great. 20% discharge, 416ampsX5=2080amps. 2080amps/115amp batteries= 18 batteries about. 18X $60 a battery= $1080. Batteries and inverter total $1580, let add $120 for very expensive cables and fuses for fun shall we, TOTAL $1700.

Now we can figure this over at least 3 years (probably 5yrs) $1700/3= $566.66 Hmm

 System cost is $566 per year, fuel savings $725, $159 in your pocket.

 Even when figuring everything in the generators favor it cannot win!

And we never figured ANY cost for the generator itself, how much is a 5KW genny? Other than fuel what does it cost to run it 3 years the same as the inverter has been figured?

Lets look more REAL.

Really he only needs about 2kw inverter and that is alot of extra power still, $250. and reall cost on cables and fuses should be alot less than figured, around $50 maybe and that's still high. He really uses maybe 3kw a day or less so needs far fewer batteries also and they will last more like 5 years instead of only 3yrs.

 So $250 inverter and 8 batteries,cables,fuses at $550, is more of a real system sized correct, total $800 and it will should last about 5years so $800/5= $160 per year.

Figure charging closer to correct $.015kw and 4kw a day (3kw to use and 1kw so we cover losses), $.60 a day x 250 work days= $150 a year. $150 for electric and $160 for equipment, total $310 per year.

Hmm, lets see that genny again, nothing but fuel at the true usage of $5 a day for 250 days is $1250 a year. And when fuel prices soar durring the summer you can count on that going alot higher. Lets toss in just $60 a year for oil use and oil changes maybe spark plugs. Now $1310 per year, and we never have figured the cost of the genny itself or what it will cost to replace it when it wears out but yet we still have a $1000 savings per year using the inverter and batteries which WE DID figure the costs of!

 So if your genny lasts 5 years how much did that cost per year?

I ran a HOUSE on a portable power system! I used more power than alot of construction sites do. Why do you think I did not just run a genny myself??

I use an electric chainsaw in the woods where there is no power available alot of times, why do you think I use a portable power system instead of running a genny?

 I do have a great gas chainsaw I use for big stuff, but I hate the noise in the otherwise quite woods, so I use the electric for small and medium stuff which is most of the cutting anyway. That's alot more power than many jobs sites use.

Figure out your own usages and such using the numbers that are correct for your jobs and how you work.

 If you run Higher power items nearly all day, then maybe a generator is better for you. Don't think you are the only one and yours is the only way based just on how your jobs are worked. Most jobs are not that demanding in daily power unless your in the big league construction or specail area.

If $1,000 a year is a trival amount to you, please send it to me

One other thing, some people have several crews working several jobs at different sites, for them it's $1,000 per crew savings. 5 crews, $5,000 savings per year.

 It may be only a 1 or 2 man crew using a couple drills or saws, but that generator is running, or they pay the guys time to turn it on an off.

 

[finnsawyer]

Around here the first thing to go up is a temporary power pole.  So, the question becomes how many jobs actually require a remote power source?  Not many.  The mining engineer that I occasionally work for does field work like capping mines and putting in bat friendly (people unfriendly) mine entrances.  He needs remote power and he gets it from a diesel driven welder-generator, which suites his needs fine, as he needs to do a lot of welding in the field.  So, as usual, it's not one size fits all.

[zap]

Hey NTL, I did read more into some of the things you wrote

I had a big response written but I think I'll just post a smaller reply.

"I geuss a basic question, if generators are so good and the fuel used by a generator is negligible compared to the options, then why are we wasting our time and money trying to set up our homes on RE? Batteries and Inverters??? We are not really wasting our time though are we!"

The problem with this statement stems from trying comparing apples to oranges. Someone at home messing around with a HAWT or homemade panels usually doesn't have a deadline to meet whereas business is usually entirely dictated by one. Two very different situations.

I'm sure your systems would work but in the end you still have a generator for when, or if your proposed systems run out of juice. If the generator is already on the job, which you already said it would be "The generator is always there for a backup if needed", then why go to the extra cost and work setting up your systems for savings that I still propose are overstated.

And finally, any contractor worth his salt has already added the cost for any energy that he'll need to supply into his bid. Any savings gained on suppling that cheaper energy would rightfully belong to the customer. If the contractor knew he'd have a cheaper energy price to begin with, he'd use the cheaper energy price in the bid and the savings would still go to the customer. So the $1000 that you speculate might be trivial to me wouldn't be mine to send to you, although you may want to ask for it from my customers. : )

Respectfully,

[nothing to lose]

Yep, seldom does one size fit all. When heavy power loads are required a heavy power source is needed of course. It's all those little power needs that most builders have.

[nothing to lose]

Well good points I geuss.

But still many contractors bid a job as high as they can but low enough they hope to be the lowest bidder and win the job. In cases like that any savings is still profit to the business. The idea is bid the job high as possable but still be the lowest bidder.

What actual costs are to do the job doesn't matter other than keeping them low enough to make a good profit and help determine the bid amount. If costs are lower than expected when figuring the bid, that's just more profit for the company, they would have still put in the same bid if they thought it was low enough to win and just figured it as higher profits to begin with. There are other ways to bid a job also, and if you do it different that is YOUR way, not EVERYONES way. Some jobs are bid on COST PLUS, on those jobs you may get costs plus 10% so the higher the costs the more profits so on those jobs lower fuel costs would actually lower the profits.

I geuss there are all kinds of construction jobs and ways to work them, not one size fits all, heck some need a 2.5KW gennerator and some need a 5kw generator.

Ya if a power pole is first thing to be put in then not even a generator is needed, so that job does not even apply here anyway.

Deadlines have nothing to do with anything! The generator is always still there so having a second power source available does not slow anything down ever. It actually may help at rare times, like if the gennerator blows up you still have invertor and battery power till you get a new generator to the job site.

Well anyway, I been stranded 3 days on a lunch trip I took Friday, just got home this morning. Tired and aggrevated, car still broke and have to get a truck and trailer ready to go pick it up. So I'll just drop this thread, no point arggueing about it anyway.

The stuff I said though is true, I know small companies that it fully applies too almost exactly as posted, if your not one of them then fine it won't help you. I know a couple that fuel is killing and may be going under soon. IT WOULD help them a ton! I know there jobs, I know their work, I know their expenses roughly. I know their fuel costs when gas was cheap at $2.00gal and it is now $2.64 today and later this year will be what? Last year it was about $3.50gal, Will we see $4 or $5 this year?

Will we be in a war with Iran or Irak and have rationing and not even have gas available? Probably not.

But a couple small guys are hurting bad enough that if fuel hits $4gal they may go under. Too much competion in the market right now, profits too low, expenses too high and getting worse. They do great work but going under because people want shody work at lower prices insted of great work at decent prices. Maybe that ain't the case for you, but for many it is.

 One of them already slapped a gift horse in the mouth, I was willing to build the power system for him with my stuff and him pay me later or return it if he bought his own later. He wouldn't even try it out free. My 5K inverter would run more stuff then he ever uses!! My Batteries, my cables, only thing he had to supply was the socket to plug it into at night at his home where his trailer is parked every nght.

 How much trouble is it to plug in an extension cord every night when you take the trailer home anyway? That's all it amounted too. NO COST! Free use of MY stuff and I set it up free!!! Don't like it then give it back to me!!!

 It don't really mater just trying to help the guy out. Some people are dumb enough to throw away a winning lottery ticket because the taxes on the winnings are too high I geuss.

Anyway I know contractors also that have told the employees to only run the generator when tools are needed. (the above guy slapping horses is one of them) They are the ones that ARE paying 1hr or more in labor every day to turn on the genny and turn off the genny, plus fuel when it is running. Maybe your not that doing that, but don't think every one is as smart as you, because they simply are not!

These are the people I basiclly posted this for. One person I already tried to explain this to in person, but he's the type of person that if he does not see it on TV or have the government Million dollar studies he doesn't beleave anything.

Huh, also one of those people who basically says the DANS are wasting their time because you simply CANNOT make power by running magnets mounted to steel plates past coils you wind out of magnet wire.

Not everyone is as smart as we are I geuss, and that's who the post was mostly for to begin with to help them out.

 Well time to move on anyway. I was stranded 3 days, time re-couperate and re-group and re-plan the week.

See not everyone is always as smart as everyone else all the time. Normally I have tools, clothes, blankets, money ect... when I take a trip. This trip was the only time I actually needed stuff and I had NOTHING with me. Short fast trip for lunch in IL. and I got stranded 7PM Friday night in a small cold storm sleeping in a car in jeans and a t-shirt on a lonely interstate, and it was cold! Even Saturday was cold durring the day, and cell phones do not work every where. My car was in an area that did not work, I tried a truckers cell phone, I don't have one.

 Other than the problems of the car and such it was a nice trip, met alot of nice friendly people and had lots of fun durring the less stressful times.

[zap]

Sorry to hear about the car NTL... best of luck on the trip to go get it and bring it back.

[nothing to lose]

Thanks Zap,

 Not the best of luck but I did get it today.

I had a brand new cheap winch, similar to another good cheap one I had before. When I took it out of the box the plastic case was broke in 4 places. The so called 14' power cable did not reach from the hitch ball to the L16P trojans in the truck bed! What the hay, no more than 9' max. I had the power cable from a similar winch I destroyed trying to move a stuck 1 ton box truck that held my lathe/mill combo (that ended up with a serious wrecker call). I used that longer power cable.

The winch locked up about half way loaded, Sounded like it was trying to kick in but would not do anything, could not even un-spool cable free wheel. I geuss a gear jammed inside.

 I used a come-along to hand crank the car the rest of the way up onto the trailer.

This is why I beleave so strongly in keeping options open! The power winch with 360 amp L16p trojans at 12V was the perfect choice, until the winch busted!!!! Then back to the harder manual hand operated come-along.

Anyway big Buick is home, now planning new adventure with Lebaron convertible.