transformers and pcb's

[iFred]

I picked up some nice high voltage transformers. I could not date code them but they where made by Philips. PCB's where outlawed in 1976, and 5 years before that they knew about them. I did some research on the pcb's on the net but found very little info. What I did find suggested that the oil in older type transformers was thick like honey and a sort of golden color.

My oil from the transformers is thin like 10w10, really thin and looks like vegetable oil. Light in color. I tried to go to my local university to get the oil analyzed only to be told they don't do it any more and suggested a lab and a price tag of  $200-400 to get it analyzed, which I can't afford right now. So here is the question, does anyone out their know what the stuff should look like or what I could look for as an indication to possible pcb's within this oil?  Has anyone worked with this stuff?

Thanks in advance for any help

ifred

[Flux]

Normal transformer oil is thin and light in colour.

Pcb's have a distinctive smell. Pcb' don't burn, that is likely to be the easiest test. Handle with care until you are sure.

Flux

[zubbly]

hello iFred,

i used a lot of transformer oil in the past, however, most of it was used in submersible pumps for stator immersion. i rarely got involved with oil filled transformers.

the oil i used was "voltesso 35" made and sold by esso, and sounds just like what you have.

esso used to have a service for identification of oil for their clients. not sure if they still do it.

you could call an esso agent (most sell grease and oils to the industries) and ask if they will send a sample of your oil to their labs for identification. it used to be free of charge. they also used to check it for contaminants.

just a possible way to find out whats in your oil.  hope this helps.

zubbly

[DanG]

If you have an old oil filled transformer why open it? Thats like looking  into a gasolene can using a lit match for lightto see the contents!

1976 is a bad year for gambling with transformers.

"PCBs were commercially produced as complex mixtures containing multiple isomers at different degrees of chlorination. The major North American producer, Monsanto, marketed PCBs under the trade name Aroclor from 1930 to 1977. General Electric marketed a similar product under the trade name Pyranol. These were sold under trade names followed by a 4 digit number. The first two digits generally refer to the number of carbon atoms in the biphenyl skeleton (for PCBs this is 12), the second two numbers indicate the percentage of chlorine by mass in the mixture."

http://www.epa.gov/pcb/

http://www.epa.gov/toxteam/pcbid/

http://www.epa.gov/pcb/pubs/guidance.html

Never even consider burning transformer oils - If contaminated you'd be lucky if the folks in moon suits visit and carry everything you own off in steel drums but more likely it'd be a slow painful death for you and yours.

See the EPA link - then go to your State and Local Goverement sites...Call your local health department or even poison control center for referal to an authority on utility transformer handling guidelines and disposal.

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[pepa]

ifered, PLEASE BE CAREFUL WITH THE CHLORINE, i am a walking dead man that lives on 24/7 oxygen and six hours a day on machines, and all night. because of chlorine exposure. there is no cure, only transplants if you quilify, i dont. pepa

[DanG]

Addendum: hard to believe his search didn't yield anything but damn fine reason to gather some facts and post them for FL users...

Most common transformer contamination these days is from units drained and flushed years ago still carrying trace contamination (5-500ppm). PCBs are readily absorbed through the skin so zero-tolerance is implied. One touch of this persistant organic pollutant will put measureable quanities into your tissues.

http://www.rachel.org/bulletin/index.cfm?issue_ID=802

Most common exposure source is small oil capacitors from old TV's, refrigerators and Fluorescent lamp ballasts. Anything pre-1979 is suspect and should be treated like poison.

"EPA banned the manufacture of PCBs in 1978, PCBs were commonly incorporated in the manufacture of fluorescent light ballasts. The use of PCBs in ballasts manufactured prior to 1978 is not regulated by EPA. All light ballasts manufactured since 1978 which do not contain PCBs should be marked by the manufacturer with the statement, ANo PCBs.@ For those manufactured prior to that time, or for those ballasts which contain no statement regarding PCB content, you should assume that they do contain PCBs."

"If the ballast does contain PCBs, they are located inside the small capacitor. There would be approximately 1 to 1½ ounces of PCBs in the capacitor itself. If the ballast fails, the capacitor may break open, allowing the PCBs to contaminate the surrounding tar-like material and drip out of the fixture. The capacitor does not always leak when the ballast fails, but when it does, measurers should be taken to limit or avoid personal exposure."

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[picmacmillan]

hi ifred,..nice to see you here ...i have seen pcb's in transformers and if i wasnt sure, i would treat it as if it has some.......the guy that owns the junkyard between matchett and 18 highway across the street from ojibway park...near dainty foods ...tears them apart all the time to get the copper out..he's a recycler...from seeing your transformers myself, i am not sure if they would have pcb's or not? they were from the university werent they?? kinda figure they would be up on not using that if possible?...anyhow, saw your name, thought i would say hey ...take care..pickster

[Sundog]

It's not the PCB's that'll do you in.  PCB's are pretty inert.  It's the dioxins produced during the manufacture of the PCB's, and when PCB's burn that are so nasty.  But it's pretty much a given that wherever PCB's are, you'll find dioxins.  

PCB use was pretty much curtailed in the 70's.  There's still a lot of components out there that have PCB's in them, and believe it or not, you're more likely to find a capacitor containing PCB's than you are to find a transformer containing PCB's.  Most older xformers have been scrapped out and recycled, or the oil flushed and changed.  Flushed transformers are still PCB contaminated, though at a much lower concentration than when new.  

Don't be fooled into thinking that PCB transformer oil won't burn.  It WILL burn.  It just is harder to ignite than "normal" transformer oil.  And when PCB oil burns, it releases dioxins (again, which are a Bad Thing(tm)).  

If there's any doubt about PCB contamination, pass on it, even if it's free.   It isn't worth the EPA headache, the nagging doubt, or the constant concern of it releasing PCB's anywhere near where you live.  

[DanG]

Sundog your clarity is appreciated, thanks.

"Agent Orange" is where alot of people got exposed to Dioxin, lowest-bid goverment suppliers naturally chose the cheapest oil they could find so the carrier oil was contaminated from salvaged tranformer oil in their blends. Dioxin is a breakdown element of PCB's; PCB oils after a few years of normal service can accumulate them, and comparitively huge amounts occur if transformer - capacitor ever had a runaway event...

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[dinges]

'more likely to find PCBs in capacitors than transformers'.

Hmm...

About 7-8 years ago I tried to repair the capacitor in a microwave oven (diode in it was defect). Took out the oil and put it in a plastic container. A few weeks later I came back and the oil was gone. The container had dissolved just about completely.

Could the oil have contained PCBs?

I've wisened up since then (I like to think), but I'm still doubting whether that capacitor contained it.

I prefer to be a bit careful and live until a ripe old age; it's just that sometimes, we lack knowledge. Hope that the guy ripping transformers apart for the copper comes to his senses or gets educated about the dangers.

Peter.

[iFred]

Thank you for your wise and knowledgeable statements. I think the best course of action then is to get it checked out at a lab, pay the money somehow just to know that it's safe, or not. I opened the container just to get a sample of the oil, I was wearing gloves and was not taking any chances, rather safe then sorry. I think they where manufactured after 1976, but without a date confirmation and without nothing for sure, it's not worth the hassle nor the risk. Thanks again for the help!

[dinges]

Flux,

Is there any chance you could describe this smell? (yeah, I know. Why ask easy questions when hard ones exist).

Peter.